Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Late 16 C Kilij / Pala blade for discussion

Oriental-Arms · 23rd July 2007, 08:57 AM

Thanks all for referring to this blade.

Of course I will be most happy if this sword belonged to Sinan Pasha. This will add great value to the blade, but the major issue here is how old is this blade??.

We used always to think that this type of Pala blades with the deep curvature and wide raised Yelmen appeared only in the second half of the 18 C. The earlier Kilij blades where slimmer and longer. Whenever an earlier date, 16 or 17 C. appears on such a blade we explain it as later inscription added to commemorate an early event or added to upgrade the value of the sword. But may be we are mistaken?? May be these blades appeared earlier than we think??

Four points in favour of an early date for this blade:

1) The patina: The patina on the blade is very dark, even and quite deep. It is not rusted or pitted steel. I cleaned a small area of the blade near the tip and find out that the surface of the steel below the patina is very smooth and clean. Such patina can be developed over very long time in a relatively dry area. A good storage for example. An 18 C. blade stored in good condition would not develop such a deep patina. An earlier blade may be.

2) Length: The length of this blade is 33 inches. Compared to inches average 27 on later Pala swords. Is it possible that the shorter 18 / 19 C. Pala blades are evolved form earlier, longer "Pala" shaped blades like this one??

3) The Gold inscription, language and grammer: I am not an expert on early Turkish language and grammer. I actually do not read Turkish or early Arabic. I trust the gentleman who translated the inscription for me and he thinks it is an early work.

4) The gold inscription, inlay technique: It is indeed a koftgari work and not true inlay. I agree that it was added after the blade has seen some age and the earlier worn cartouch is the best proof for it. But I modestly admit that I have examined many gold koftgari works and never seen one of this quality. In koftgari work, a gold wire or gold foil is hammered into a criss cross of scratches cut into the steel. In a good koftgari work, the criss cross cuts are seen only very little outside of the gold pattern. In later works they are grossly (and quite ugly) extend out of the pattern. I examined every millimeter of this blade with a strong magnifier and could not find even a fraction of a mm where the cuts appears outside of the inlaid pattern. I could not find any spot where the scratches cut into the patina, they all looks below the heavy patina. This in my opinion date the inscription not very much after the balde was made, surely before the patina developed. ( I will try to take a close up photo of the inscription and post it here)

I admit that I myself a bit puzzled with the older cartouch. If I was a faker adding a later inscription I would take all measures to erase the older decoration. If I was an artist commissioned to do it by the sword owner I would do the same. Why it is left there, and why it is not interlaced into the later work?? I am afraid I do not know.

23rd July 2007, 08:57 AM	#3
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	What is the age of this blade?? Thanks all for referring to this blade. Of course I will be most happy if this sword belonged to Sinan Pasha. This will add great value to the blade, but the major issue here is *how old is this blade??*. We used always to think that this type of Pala blades with the deep curvature and wide raised Yelmen appeared only in the second half of the 18 C. The earlier Kilij blades where slimmer and longer. Whenever an earlier date, 16 or 17 C. appears on such a blade we explain it as later inscription added to commemorate an early event or added to upgrade the value of the sword. But may be we are mistaken?? May be these blades appeared earlier than we think?? Four points in favour of an early date for this blade: 1) The patina: The patina on the blade is very dark, even and quite deep. It is not rusted or pitted steel. I cleaned a small area of the blade near the tip and find out that the surface of the steel below the patina is very smooth and clean. Such patina can be developed over very long time in a relatively dry area. A good storage for example. An 18 C. blade stored in good condition would not develop such a deep patina. An earlier blade may be. 2) Length: The length of this blade is 33 inches. Compared to inches average 27 on later Pala swords. Is it possible that the shorter 18 / 19 C. Pala blades are evolved form earlier, longer "Pala" shaped blades like this one?? 3) The Gold inscription, language and grammer: I am not an expert on early Turkish language and grammer. I actually do not read Turkish or early Arabic. I trust the gentleman who translated the inscription for me and he thinks it is an early work. 4) The gold inscription, inlay technique: It is indeed a koftgari work and not true inlay. I agree that it was added after the blade has seen some age and the earlier worn cartouch is the best proof for it. But I modestly admit that I have examined many gold koftgari works and never seen one of this quality. In koftgari work, a gold wire or gold foil is hammered into a criss cross of scratches cut into the steel. In a good koftgari work, the criss cross cuts are seen only very little outside of the gold pattern. In later works they are grossly (and quite ugly) extend out of the pattern. I examined every millimeter of this blade with a strong magnifier and could not find even a fraction of a mm where the cuts appears outside of the inlaid pattern. I could not find any spot where the scratches cut into the patina, they all looks below the heavy patina. This in my opinion date the inscription not very much after the balde was made, surely before the patina developed. ( I will try to take a close up photo of the inscription and post it here) I admit that I myself a bit puzzled with the older cartouch. If I was a faker adding a later inscription I would take all measures to erase the older decoration. If I was an artist commissioned to do it by the sword owner I would do the same. Why it is left there, and why it is not interlaced into the later work?? I am afraid I do not know.