Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Tachi versus katana in horseback fighting

tsubame1 · 22nd October 2006, 08:47 PM

Hi Philip, sorry I've not put a signature in my profile. I'm Carlo and don't deserve the -San , rather the -Kun, in friendly, even if maybe intense, discussions as this one.

Probably the issue that started the discussion is the difficulty to relate Tachi and Katana use to western swords terminology.
"Not a two hand sword" here doesn't mean "one hand sword".
The closest thing to japanese types of swords that come to my mind is the Oakeshott's "one-and-a-half-hand", more known as "bastard" sword, being the Tachi closest to one-hand but still suitable and, in effect, used also with two hands by foot, and the Katana closest to two-hands use but still suitable for one-hand too, comes to mind Iaido/Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu first strikes from unsheated sword that are always made with one hand only.

The same difficulty might be found to relate the Japanese horseback fighting with most of the other ones, that we can even call more evoluted but that I would like, rather, to call "suited to a different environment", meaning "environment" the summa of geographical (rough terrain), economical (lack of terrain to breed vast numbers of horses) cultural (absolute absence of personal shields) natural (sturdy and resistant horse races, 7 if I remember well, but not as swift as most others) factors that influenced either the develop of cavalry tactics and the cavalry troops equipment.

It's hard to call "cavalry charge" a Takeda one, even if it was renowned during all the Sengokujidai as the strongest japanese cavalry ever, if you compare it to Balaklava. Cavalry charges in japanese history were always quiet slow, accompained by running footsoldiers (Kerai, Ashigaru, whaterver) supporting the horseman (Samurai, Hatamoto, whatever).
Contrary to common knowledge, Nagashino is not an exception.
Balaklava is obviously more suited to our "collective imagination" then
Nagashino, as a cavalry charge.

So I can understand my counterpart's confusion in certain points as the shape of the sword needs to be related to actual use and tactics and can't be compared to use and tactics in much later times and other environments.
Japaneses fully understood the high value of cavalry, establishing a cast of
horsefighters, the Samurai, that ruled the country as the real power for 8 centuries. They developed cavalry according to their needs and situation.
Truly western-way equipped and trained Meiji cavalry never fought in Japan but in Manchuria and other continental countries as China or Korea, even Siberia in 1917 supporting the Zar. Really far from the environment (meaning as above) that started the development of Tachi from Chokuto and later Katana from Tachi. So any comparison to early cavalry and weapons to later
or western ones isn't, to say the least, fair if used to establish a hierarchy
of "better than...".

EDIT : the owning of a real Tachi helps for sure. I too own one, even if
not with Koshizori, and this made me able to experiment the same feeling before to put it in Shirasaya. Mounting too old and far behind any type of restoration.

22nd October 2006, 08:47 PM	#4
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	Hi Philip, sorry I've not put a signature in my profile. I'm Carlo and don't deserve the -San , rather the -Kun, in friendly, even if maybe intense, discussions as this one. Probably the issue that started the discussion is the difficulty to relate Tachi and Katana use to western swords terminology. "Not a two hand sword" here doesn't mean "one hand sword". The closest thing to japanese types of swords that come to my mind is the Oakeshott's "one-and-a-half-hand", more known as "bastard" sword, being the Tachi closest to one-hand but still suitable and, in effect, used also with two hands by foot, and the Katana closest to two-hands use but still suitable for one-hand too, comes to mind Iaido/Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu first strikes from unsheated sword that are always made with one hand only. The same difficulty might be found to relate the Japanese horseback fighting with most of the other ones, that we can even call more evoluted but that I would like, rather, to call "suited to a different environment", meaning "environment" the summa of geographical (rough terrain), economical (lack of terrain to breed vast numbers of horses) cultural (absolute absence of personal shields) natural (sturdy and resistant horse races, 7 if I remember well, but not as swift as most others) factors that influenced either the develop of cavalry tactics and the cavalry troops equipment. It's hard to call "cavalry charge" a Takeda one, even if it was renowned during all the Sengokujidai as the strongest japanese cavalry ever, if you compare it to Balaklava. Cavalry charges in japanese history were always quiet slow, accompained by running footsoldiers (Kerai, Ashigaru, whaterver) supporting the horseman (Samurai, Hatamoto, whatever). Contrary to common knowledge, Nagashino is not an exception. Balaklava is obviously more suited to our "collective imagination" then Nagashino, as a cavalry charge. So I can understand my counterpart's confusion in certain points as the shape of the sword needs to be related to actual use and tactics and can't be compared to use and tactics in much later times and other environments. Japaneses fully understood the high value of cavalry, establishing a cast of horsefighters, the Samurai, that ruled the country as the real power for 8 centuries. They developed cavalry according to their needs and situation. Truly western-way equipped and trained Meiji cavalry never fought in Japan but in Manchuria and other continental countries as China or Korea, even Siberia in 1917 supporting the Zar. Really far from the environment (meaning as above) that started the development of Tachi from Chokuto and later Katana from Tachi. So any comparison to early cavalry and weapons to later or western ones isn't, to say the least, fair if used to establish a hierarchy of "better than...". EDIT : the owning of a real Tachi helps for sure. I too own one, even if not with Koshizori, and this made me able to experiment the same feeling before to put it in Shirasaya. Mounting too old and far behind any type of restoration.