Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 11th March 2025, 09:22 PM

I cannot give an answer to this question, at least, not one that I can defend.

Firstly, with things Balinese I'm very much a learner, this is to say that I know more now than I did 20 years ago, vastly more than I did 50 years ago, & less than I would expect to know this time next year.

Secondly, until very recently Bali was a number of different little kingdoms separated by deep valleys, high hills, & jungle. These little kingdoms were in a state of more or less constant warfare with constant changes in alliances, this means that when we think of old Bali we really should think of it as a collection of separate locations where people spoke mutually intelligible dialects of the same language, and the way in which each of those dialects was used varied across time & place & with each person.

I think the same thing is true of most languages, if we consider the English language there is a multitude of dialects & accents that can make our own language pretty incomprehensible to other native speakers of English.

I'm thinking right now of a particular gentleman who lived in California.

Way, way back when I used to send out hardcopy catalogues, he would take his copy from his letter box & immediately ring me and ask me to stay on the line until he got to the house, then his wife would deal with me, he was not able to understand me, she could, but with a little bit of difficulty.That was an accent problem.

But again with English. I habitually carry a pocket knife. Many of my friends carry one too. Some of my friends call their pocket knife a folder, some call it a jack knife, a very few might give that pocket knife its technically correct name, like "barlow knife", or "stock knife", or "pen knife" or whatever. I don't know why, maybe it was usage in their own families, or in the location where they grew up.

In respect of Balinese usage, I feel that usage there is similar to patterns of usage in English. From my own experience I find that just about everybody calls any sort of knife a tiuk, if pressed they might be able to give an alternative name, but the first word is tiuk, if they are using BI, then the first word mostly becomes pisau, but sometimes not, because --- as with Jawa --- ordinary people in Bali mix Balinese with Indonesian in everyday usage, & call that mixture "Bahasa Indonesia".

So --- golok? Yeah, why not? And equally, perupak? Why not?

Since we are using English, I personally think that our English word knife might be just as good. If the people in the society that generated this implement are free to give it varying names, then when we are referring to the same implement, we should be free to use our own name for it. The most important thing is that we understand one another.

11th March 2025, 09:22 PM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,964	I cannot give an answer to this question, at least, not one that I can defend. Firstly, with things Balinese I'm very much a learner, this is to say that I know more now than I did 20 years ago, vastly more than I did 50 years ago, & less than I would expect to know this time next year. Secondly, until very recently Bali was a number of different little kingdoms separated by deep valleys, high hills, & jungle. These little kingdoms were in a state of more or less constant warfare with constant changes in alliances, this means that when we think of old Bali we really should think of it as a collection of separate locations where people spoke mutually intelligible dialects of the same language, and the way in which each of those dialects was used varied across time & place & with each person. I think the same thing is true of most languages, if we consider the English language there is a multitude of dialects & accents that can make our own language pretty incomprehensible to other native speakers of English. I'm thinking right now of a particular gentleman who lived in California. Way, way back when I used to send out hardcopy catalogues, he would take his copy from his letter box & immediately ring me and ask me to stay on the line until he got to the house, then his wife would deal with me, he was not able to understand me, she could, but with a little bit of difficulty.That was an accent problem. But again with English. I habitually carry a pocket knife. Many of my friends carry one too. Some of my friends call their pocket knife a folder, some call it a jack knife, a very few might give that pocket knife its technically correct name, like "barlow knife", or "stock knife", or "pen knife" or whatever. I don't know why, maybe it was usage in their own families, or in the location where they grew up. In respect of Balinese usage, I feel that usage there is similar to patterns of usage in English. From my own experience I find that just about everybody calls any sort of knife a tiuk, if pressed they might be able to give an alternative name, but the first word is tiuk, if they are using BI, then the first word mostly becomes pisau, but sometimes not, because --- as with Jawa --- ordinary people in Bali mix Balinese with Indonesian in everyday usage, & call that mixture "Bahasa Indonesia". So --- golok? Yeah, why not? And equally, perupak? Why not? Since we are using English, I personally think that our English word knife might be just as good. If the people in the society that generated this implement are free to give it varying names, then when we are referring to the same implement, we should be free to use our own name for it. The most important thing is that we understand one another.