Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 23rd April 2016, 07:50 AM

Thank you for your detailed responses to my queries Gustav, I believe I now understand reasonably well the foundations of your opinions.

I'm not going to work through what you have written and address every point you have made, but I will comment on what I see as the most important elements in what you have written. My comments will be very brief, but I am more than happy to answer any direct question that either you or anybody else may raise.

Post # 30.

The Tumpal

The present day conventional understanding of the tumpal is that it is representative of the Gunungan. The Gunungan is representative of the Cosmic Mountain, which can also be taken as Mt. Meru, home of the Gods and the waiting place of the ancestors. Siwa lives on Mt. Meru, so Mt. Meru can also represent Siwa. The Balinese shrine form is known as a Meru.

The lower slopes of Mt. Meru are covered with foliage, so a tumpal or Gunungan that carries foliate motifs (lung-lungan) is an intensification of the reference to Mt. Meru. Often Bhoma (Kala) will appear with a tumpal-like surmount of foliage, this reference can be read as the uniting of earth and water to produce growth, an extremely important matter for an agricultural people. (Bhoma is the son of Wisnu and Basundari = son of earth and water = symbolic of growth and fertility)

The Bhoma, sometimes called Kala, is a representation of the son of Wisnu and Basundari, and thus is the child of water and earth. The joining of water and earth results in the growth of plants, which in a society dependent upon agriculture equates to prosperity. In Sanscrit, Bhoma means "born of the earth". Thus Bhoma can be taken to represent the growth of vegetation. However, Bhoma should also be read as a protective symbol.

The horizontal "lingga/yoni" that we believe we can sometimes see in the base of a tumpal can also be interpreted as a bintulu, which in this context can be interpreted as symbolic of Bhoma.

From the historical perspective, the lung-lungan motifs (foliate motifs) are probably a development of one of the very basic Javanese motifs, the scroll.

The horizontal "lingga/yoni" is actually a Javanese representation of the conventional vertical lingga/yoni, along with all that this implies. The lingga : yoni symbolism represents the indivisible nature of male and female principles inherent in all creation. The balance of male : female is present in all Hindu ideals, and there cannot be one in the absence of the other, thus where the male principle (lingga) is found in combination with the female principle (yoni) we have a representation of creation and of a community. The very foundations of life and society.

The Gunungan of the wayang (also known as the Kayon) is a polysymbol that represents the Cosmic Mountain and by association the dwelling place of the gods, Mt. Meru, and also the Kalpataru Tree, or Tree of Life. So, in fact, the Gunungan can also be understood as the Kalpataru Tree.

The very first thing that we should seek to understand when we set out to interpret Javanese symbolism, whether in the keris or in some other context is the Gunungan. Possibly the best beginning for this is:-

Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997.

I am sorry to say I am not a big fan of some of Karsten Jensen's ideas.

Post # 32

Gustav, I think we might have another misunderstanding here:-

you have quoted something I wrote that referred to the interpretation of symbols to be found in the keris, and then provided some comment on the influence of Hindu culture in Jawa following the collapse of the political entities that adhered to a Hindu-Buddhist belief system.
Yes, of course China. Have a look at Pekalongan.

I have no argument with what you have written.

How could I have?

All this is common knowledge, its "Jawa 101" so to speak.

The Javanese courts have never let go completely of a lot of the trappings of the Hindu-Buddhist period, and Hindu influences permeate ordinary Javanese society even today. China? Javanese rulers married Chinese women and exchanged gifts with Chinese rulers. Chinese influences permeate Javanese culture and society just as do the influences of many other cultures

My comments were directed at interpretation of symbols. In simple terms I said that when we seek to interpret the meaning of a symbol we need to interpret it in accordance with the relevant place and time.

The meaning of symbols depends upon the place and time where the symbol was used, the same symbol may not have the same meaning when it is used several hundred years apart, or several thousand miles apart.

In fact, in Javanese symbolism, the same symbol may not have the same meaning in two different contexts, even though these contexts apply in the same place and at the same time. One of the problems in understanding Javanese symbolism is that it is polysymbolism, ie, the same symbol can be understood in different ways depending upon context and intent. Thus, we cannot just look at the symbol and assume that it has a constant meaning, we need to penetrate both context and intent and then try to interpret what the symbol is intended to say. This makes Javanese symbolism very, very difficult to come to terms with. Sometimes we simply cannot understand what a symbol is really intended to mean.

Post # 33

Gustav, I would prefer to reserve comment of this post, nevertheless, I greatly appreciate the effort you have made to respond to my questions, thank you for clarifying my understanding.

23rd April 2016, 07:50 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,975	Thank you for your detailed responses to my queries Gustav, I believe I now understand reasonably well the foundations of your opinions. I'm not going to work through what you have written and address every point you have made, but I will comment on what I see as the most important elements in what you have written. My comments will be very brief, but I am more than happy to answer any direct question that either you or anybody else may raise. Post # 30. The Tumpal The present day conventional understanding of the tumpal is that it is representative of the Gunungan. The Gunungan is representative of the Cosmic Mountain, which can also be taken as Mt. Meru, home of the Gods and the waiting place of the ancestors. Siwa lives on Mt. Meru, so Mt. Meru can also represent Siwa. The Balinese shrine form is known as a Meru. The lower slopes of Mt. Meru are covered with foliage, so a tumpal or Gunungan that carries foliate motifs (lung-lungan) is an intensification of the reference to Mt. Meru. Often Bhoma (Kala) will appear with a tumpal-like surmount of foliage, this reference can be read as the uniting of earth and water to produce growth, an extremely important matter for an agricultural people. (Bhoma is the son of Wisnu and Basundari = son of earth and water = symbolic of growth and fertility) The Bhoma, sometimes called Kala, is a representation of the son of Wisnu and Basundari, and thus is the child of water and earth. The joining of water and earth results in the growth of plants, which in a society dependent upon agriculture equates to prosperity. In Sanscrit, Bhoma means "born of the earth". Thus Bhoma can be taken to represent the growth of vegetation. However, Bhoma should also be read as a protective symbol. The horizontal "lingga/yoni" that we believe we can sometimes see in the base of a tumpal can also be interpreted as a bintulu, which in this context can be interpreted as symbolic of Bhoma. From the historical perspective, the lung-lungan motifs (foliate motifs) are probably a development of one of the very basic Javanese motifs, the scroll. The horizontal "lingga/yoni" is actually a Javanese representation of the conventional vertical lingga/yoni, along with all that this implies. The lingga : yoni symbolism represents the indivisible nature of male and female principles inherent in all creation. The balance of male : female is present in all Hindu ideals, and there cannot be one in the absence of the other, thus where the male principle (lingga) is found in combination with the female principle (yoni) we have a representation of creation and of a community. The very foundations of life and society. The Gunungan of the wayang (also known as the Kayon) is a polysymbol that represents the Cosmic Mountain and by association the dwelling place of the gods, Mt. Meru, and also the Kalpataru Tree, or Tree of Life. So, in fact, the Gunungan can also be understood as the Kalpataru Tree. The very first thing that we should seek to understand when we set out to interpret Javanese symbolism, whether in the keris or in some other context is the Gunungan. Possibly the best beginning for this is:- Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997. I am sorry to say I am not a big fan of some of Karsten Jensen's ideas. Post # 32 Gustav, I think we might have another misunderstanding here:- you have quoted something I wrote that referred to the interpretation of symbols to be found in the keris, and then provided some comment on the influence of Hindu culture in Jawa following the collapse of the political entities that adhered to a Hindu-Buddhist belief system. Yes, of course China. Have a look at Pekalongan. I have no argument with what you have written. How could I have? All this is common knowledge, its "Jawa 101" so to speak. The Javanese courts have never let go completely of a lot of the trappings of the Hindu-Buddhist period, and Hindu influences permeate ordinary Javanese society even today. China? Javanese rulers married Chinese women and exchanged gifts with Chinese rulers. Chinese influences permeate Javanese culture and society just as do the influences of many other cultures My comments were directed at interpretation of symbols. In simple terms I said that when we seek to interpret the meaning of a symbol we need to interpret it in accordance with the relevant place and time. The meaning of symbols depends upon the place and time where the symbol was used, the same symbol may not have the same meaning when it is used several hundred years apart, or several thousand miles apart. In fact, in Javanese symbolism, the same symbol may not have the same meaning in two different contexts, even though these contexts apply in the same place and at the same time. One of the problems in understanding Javanese symbolism is that it is polysymbolism, ie, the same symbol can be understood in different ways depending upon context and intent. Thus, we cannot just look at the symbol and assume that it has a constant meaning, we need to penetrate both context and intent and then try to interpret what the symbol is intended to say. This makes Javanese symbolism very, very difficult to come to terms with. Sometimes we simply cannot understand what a symbol is really intended to mean. Post # 33 Gustav, I would prefer to reserve comment of this post, nevertheless, I greatly appreciate the effort you have made to respond to my questions, thank you for clarifying my understanding.