Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2013, 06:05 PM

Thanks, I knew this example was not from Spring, and it is really an interesting anomaly as far as I can see. I had not seen swords with the S guard in this context. It would be great to have the examples from Spring shown here to illustrate what we're discussing for the readers.

I agree that these factors are pressing for a North African presence of these distinctly hilted and scabbarded sabres. Another sword discussion which may have some oblique bearing on this conundrum does recall another item in the Tirri reference which had disputed provenance, the so called 'Zanzibar sword'. This is the baselard (H shape hilt) form smallsword which was identified as a 'Zanzibar' sword in Burton (1884). I found that this exact and apparant misidentification was lifted directly from Demmin (1877) right down to the line drawing, and subsequently found that Buttin (1933) had classified these as Moroccan s'boula. In his footnotes he cites the Burton/Demmin 'error' .

What was most interesting was that Tirri had an example of one of these exact swords with Amharic inscription and I found an example of one of these among Ethiopian weapons in "Weapons of Africa" (Lindert, 1964) a small pamphlet.

These elements suggest the strong ties via trade route networking which existed transcontinentally, and pronounced presence of Moroccan weapons as far as Zanzibar, which would of course include Berber forms in cases. These networks included of course routes through Ethiopian points, and may explain the presence of s'boula in Zanzibar and Ethiopia...as well as conversely these scabbards with distinct vertical protrusion (resembling the Arab influence suggested) being in Ethiopian and Berber contexts.

I would point out as I have throught the years the interesting case of the Manding sabres which have cylindrical hilts compellingly similar to the Omani kattara, yet they occur in distant Saharan context far from Omani contact...except through possible trade presence from Zanzibar, which was of course an Omani Sultanate as well as powerful trade entrepot. Of further note is again the scabbards, which carry the flared tip characteristic of the kaskara, and revealing probable diffusion westward in these trade routes.

While these notes are concerning other sword forms, they seem pertinant to the study of these Berber sabres and thier likely origins and development, which seems to favor North African Berber regions at this point.
As I have once again brought Buttin into the discussion, it seems a bit contrary to suggest that these sabres cannot have been among Moroccan weapons as they do not appear in Buttin...while noting that the 'Zanzibar' swords are in fact Moroccan because they DO appear in his reference.

It is clear that more support is needed for those weapons' origin as well as continuing viable research on the 'Berber' sabres. As Teodor has well noted, many misperceptions have been perpetuated with the use of material from earlier references without further study and evidence. I think that is why we are here

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11th June 2013, 06:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks, I knew this example was not from Spring, and it is really an interesting anomaly as far as I can see. I had not seen swords with the S guard in this context. It would be great to have the examples from Spring shown here to illustrate what we're discussing for the readers. I agree that these factors are pressing for a North African presence of these distinctly hilted and scabbarded sabres. Another sword discussion which may have some oblique bearing on this conundrum does recall another item in the Tirri reference which had disputed provenance, the so called 'Zanzibar sword'. This is the baselard (H shape hilt) form smallsword which was identified as a 'Zanzibar' sword in Burton (1884). I found that this exact and apparant misidentification was lifted directly from Demmin (1877) right down to the line drawing, and subsequently found that Buttin (1933) had classified these as Moroccan s'boula. In his footnotes he cites the Burton/Demmin 'error' . What was most interesting was that Tirri had an example of one of these exact swords with Amharic inscription and I found an example of one of these among Ethiopian weapons in "Weapons of Africa" (Lindert, 1964) a small pamphlet. These elements suggest the strong ties via trade route networking which existed transcontinentally, and pronounced presence of Moroccan weapons as far as Zanzibar, which would of course include Berber forms in cases. These networks included of course routes through Ethiopian points, and may explain the presence of s'boula in Zanzibar and Ethiopia...as well as conversely these scabbards with distinct vertical protrusion (resembling the Arab influence suggested) being in Ethiopian and Berber contexts. I would point out as I have throught the years the interesting case of the Manding sabres which have cylindrical hilts compellingly similar to the Omani kattara, yet they occur in distant Saharan context far from Omani contact...except through possible trade presence from Zanzibar, which was of course an Omani Sultanate as well as powerful trade entrepot. Of further note is again the scabbards, which carry the flared tip characteristic of the kaskara, and revealing probable diffusion westward in these trade routes. While these notes are concerning other sword forms, they seem pertinant to the study of these Berber sabres and thier likely origins and development, which seems to favor North African Berber regions at this point. As I have once again brought Buttin into the discussion, it seems a bit contrary to suggest that these sabres cannot have been among Moroccan weapons as they do not appear in Buttin...while noting that the 'Zanzibar' swords are in fact Moroccan because they DO appear in his reference. It is clear that more support is needed for those weapons' origin as well as continuing viable research on the 'Berber' sabres. As Teodor has well noted, many misperceptions have been perpetuated with the use of material from earlier references without further study and evidence. I think that is why we are here.