[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding responses Ibrahiim, and it really is great to be expressing our ideas and perceptions not especially as debate, but establishing opinions on compiled material at hand. Naturally concerning matters regarding the specific history of Oman and its environs your command is understandably profound, and my interpretations are cursory as I am pretty much learning most of it as I go along. Most of my interest in the history of swords has always been primarily markings and symbolism, as well as understanding more on forms as they developed. Clearly we are focused on both here, so it becomes more fascinating as we move forward.

I understand what you mean on the heraldic type tradition with the old sayf, and am trying to get used to using these terms according to the parlance you are establishing here.....its hard though as of course the kattara term is so firmly emplaced from the many years of referencing these. In most cases with study of ethnographic weapons the semantics of terms in referring to various forms becomes maddening, and as once well described by Lee Jones, typically applied generally to sword, not otherwise specified. The sabre in Morocco usually termed 'nimcha' is more properly termed Moroccan sa'if...in India the Indo-Persian sabre with disc pommel is termed tulwar, but then so are Persian shamshirs in the Mughal courts. In the Sudan, we have called the broadsword the kaskara, but there it is simply known as sa'if. There are so many other instances of disparity in application of these terms for specific forms of weapons that it is almost futile to try to resolve effectively. I am pretty sure we could write a book on the instances of variations on edged weapon nomenclature and classification alone.

Returning to the tradition of the old sayf remaining in situ for literally a thousand years, in essence I understand what you mean, but agreed we have no certain idea what the 751AD sword actually looked like. It is agreed that most of the swords extant in Istanbul were probably rehilted, and again we agree 'probably' most, but still none have the hilt style of these old Omani sayf. I do know what Anthony North meant though, and it is true that very old weapon styles did remain present over long periods, but I think much of this is due to atavistic and revival type situations recalling old traditions, much in the heraldic sense you describe.
In the late 18th and through the 19th century, French military weapons brought forth many neo-classic designs and many were from old Roman sword types from ancient times. These forms transmitted into American examples and into the civilian sector with fraternal groups and Masonic organizations.

The biggest problem in studying various ethnographic weapon forms in trying to establish reliable continuum chronologically showing thier evolution and development. Many forms familiar to us such as the kastane of Sri Lanka; flyssa of Algeria; the so called 'Black Sea yataghan' ; and numerous others are late comers, some of which can only be traced to early 19th century, thier seemingly ancient style association compellingly connected, but with no linear progression to support those origins.

There really does not seem to be any particular reason to presume that the cylindrical hilt evolved in Muscat over the interior regions, and there does not seem to be any particular tradition for guardless swords in either. Clearly your perspective on the sword and buckler concept is well placed as these type swords were light and fast, and any guard or parry was to the buckler. I believe if I recall that it is established that both of these hilt forms existed concurrently though of course the cylindrical type came in around late 17th or 18th century. The silver sheathing embellishment seems to typically be absent on examples of the old sayf which appear, and less common but does exist on the cylinder hilt type.

I believe that the flexible blade was key to the cylindrical hilt form used for the sword dance, but that it was not essential to all of these type sayf. Much of the presence of these was toward the fashion in wear, and I believe that these were worn as key accoutrements of status by influential individuals. Case in point are the curved blade types which are seen in todays Omani emblem along with the distinctive khanjhar, also a key element of fashion and status. Again, this is simply my own perception at this point based on what I have understood from material I have researched.

Good points on the sayf Yemeni and agree that that classification term while typically suggesting where the sword was made (per Kennedy, op.cit.) may equally simply mean, where it is from. As we have discussed, trade blades, primarily German were coming into Yemen regions in the 19th century, and probably in some degree earlier via other trade connections. It seems to me that most European blades had a good degree of flexibility, though I am not certain they reached the degree of flexibility of the halab blades. It would seem that there would be a degree of selection as far as the blade used, and that those intended for these sword dances were not necessarily those which may have carried heavier straight or curved blades. If I understand correctly the curved swords are not used in the sword dance.

Your note on the Zanzibar 'nimcha' brought back memories. These are actually as I understand also termed sa'if and are typically like the Moroccan hilts with similar quillon system except they have a vertical counterguard ring. When I first acquired one of these many years ago it was one of a number acquired in Yemen. I had been researching the curious H type hilt sword Burton and Demmin (1884 and 1877 respectively) show next to the Omani cylinder hilt, and describe it as 'the other type Zanzibar sword'. I was subsequently able to show that that particular type, through references with Buttin, was actually a Moroccan s'boula and had been taken by these authors to have been Zanzibari. Clearly another situation of trade route diffusion reflecting the contact between these diverse regions through trade entrepots across vast distances.

Returning to the old sayf type, by analogy I would note the Indian khanda, often termed 'firangi' if it is with European or 'foreign' blade. These came from a relatively ancient sword style which is seen iconographically on ancient friezes in temples. It is important to note that these swords are very much revered in the Hindu religion , and by form these venerated swords are very much a part of religious ceremony in many cases. These also often have certain elements of thier structure reflecting architectural and sacred shapes and designs of the temples along with deep meanings imbued in the weapon itself.
Rather than remaining entirely static in design, these evolved into what has become known as the Hindu basket hilt, in which the basic structure remains but in more developed form. While suggested that European hilt forms led to this development, it appears to me that it was more a gradual developmnent of the basic form. As with many traditional ethnographic sword forms, thy remain essentially the same, but with often extremely subtle nuances which can help in establishing the date or period they are from.

Obviously this analogy does not necessarily prove anything toward the discussion on the old sayf as far as whether they remained the same from the beginning presumed at around 751 until the18th century, but I thought worthy of note as an interesting parallel.

As always, I am very much enjoying our discussion, and the in depth look into the history surrounding these weapons. Thank you so much, and look forward to progressing onward.

All the best,
Jim