Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Iain · 9th January 2012, 06:23 PM

Thanks for clarifying your position Ibrahiim.

Just a couple questions for you, just to stimulation the discussion, I am neither on one side of the fence or the other on your question of trade blades, I just find the discussion interesting, so please don't take this as an attack on your research. I realized we've discussed some of these issues before but as you posted a new summary I think it is important to come back to them.

If not for outside European influences who do local versions of the running wolf occur, like this example which should be, by your definition I think a "real and local" Omani sayf: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

How would you account for the use of triple fullers and half moon stamps like on this example: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2700 Features in other African sword forms derived directly from European trade blades.

Why would the older short sayf form be replaced at all if not for a dramatic outside influence? If the tradition and symbolism of the original sword was so important? Why else would it suddenly change?

Can you maybe explain for us why flexibility would be important in a sayf not just for the dance but also combat? A lot of your definition hangs on this point and I am unsure of how far back it is possible to accurately trace this preference for flexible blades? Is it not possible the preference for flexibility and the buzzing sound is a more modern (by modern I mean as the sword declined in importance for combat as firearms took over) requirement due to the dance aspect? I would be surprised if in earlier periods the need for the sword to buzz when swung would be considered over steel quality.

Perhaps a good way to sum up what I am trying to say is, could it perhaps be said that the long sayf, flexible form, are not European trade blades, but a local imitation of trade blades, adapted to be flexible and fulfill the requirements of the Razha and Ayaalah?

I am not an expert in the hilts of the region but I find it very odd to assume that based on blade flexibility alone everything with an actual trade blade could be conclusively written off as not Omani while the genuine Omani swords retain many of the exact same features (fullers and stamps) as the trade blades. At some point for flexible blades, influenced by trade blades, to be made, someone had to think the original trade blades had a lot of good features...

Just some points to think about.

All the best,

Iain

9th January 2012, 06:23 PM	#199
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Thanks for clarifying your position Ibrahiim. Just a couple questions for you, just to stimulation the discussion, I am neither on one side of the fence or the other on your question of trade blades, I just find the discussion interesting, so please don't take this as an attack on your research. I realized we've discussed some of these issues before but as you posted a new summary I think it is important to come back to them. If not for outside European influences who do local versions of the running wolf occur, like this example which should be, by your definition I think a "real and local" Omani sayf: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971 How would you account for the use of triple fullers and half moon stamps like on this example: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2700 Features in other African sword forms derived directly from European trade blades. Why would the older short sayf form be replaced at all if not for a dramatic outside influence? If the tradition and symbolism of the original sword was so important? Why else would it suddenly change? Can you maybe explain for us why flexibility would be important in a sayf not just for the dance but also combat? A lot of your definition hangs on this point and I am unsure of how far back it is possible to accurately trace this preference for flexible blades? Is it not possible the preference for flexibility and the buzzing sound is a more modern (by modern I mean as the sword declined in importance for combat as firearms took over) requirement due to the dance aspect? I would be surprised if in earlier periods the need for the sword to buzz when swung would be considered over steel quality. Perhaps a good way to sum up what I am trying to say is, could it perhaps be said that the long sayf, flexible form, are not European trade blades, but a local imitation of trade blades, adapted to be flexible and fulfill the requirements of the Razha and Ayaalah? I am not an expert in the hilts of the region but I find it very odd to assume that based on blade flexibility alone everything with an actual trade blade could be conclusively written off as not Omani while the genuine Omani swords retain many of the exact same features (fullers and stamps) as the trade blades. At some point for flexible blades, influenced by trade blades, to be made, someone had to think the original trade blades had a lot of good features... Just some points to think about. All the best, Iain