Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

TVV · 4th January 2012, 04:31 AM

Michael & Jasper,

Thank you very much! The sabre Jasper posted is a very nice one and I can see the angled hilt - I can certainly see how this is the form that these sabres evolved into after being adopted in Central Europe. The blade in terms of length and curvature is also a very close match.

I can agree that given Hungarian activity just south of the Danube in the period between 1350 and 1450 can certainly account for a Hungarian blade. Apart from the Hungarian led Nicopolis Crusade, there were of course the Crusades of the Polish-Lithuanian King Vladislav III, during which Hungary was part of the Commonwealth and in which the famous Ian Hunyadi participated with his Hungarian troops. What I wonder though is if the sabre was already in use in Hungary at that time. I doubt that use of the sabre in Hungary survived from the 9th century to the 14th century and this is why I asked if it is found depicted in period images or if there are any examples with clear provenance and dating.

I was going to discard a Tatar attribution based on the fact that early Golden Horde swords look very different, but I found the attached sword in Gutwski's catalogues on Tatar Arms. Based on what I can understand from the description in Polish, it is a sword in early 17th century mounts with an earlier, 15th century wootz blade of Syrian manufacture. Similar measurements to the sabre that is the subject of the thread: blade is 81.4 cm long and 3.8 cm wide, but it is more curved.

In Astvatsaturian's book on Turkish arms is pictured a sword that belonged to Knyaz Feodor Mustislavich. It is obviously excellently preserved and a very ornate example, but the blade and crossguard shapes are similar to the relic that started this thread. The measurements are as follows: 86.4 cm long blade, 5.8 cm wide (obviously an imposing weapon). Mustislavich dies in 1540, which would place the blade to the early 16th, late 15th centuries.

I am not necessarily pushing for a Turkish origin, and would be happy with a Hungarian (or other) attribution as long as I can see enough evidence to support this for the benefit of my friend and future readers of this thread.

Once again, many thanks for the quick and excellent responses.

Teodor

4th January 2012, 04:31 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Michael & Jasper, Thank you very much! The sabre Jasper posted is a very nice one and I can see the angled hilt - I can certainly see how this is the form that these sabres evolved into after being adopted in Central Europe. The blade in terms of length and curvature is also a very close match. I can agree that given Hungarian activity just south of the Danube in the period between 1350 and 1450 can certainly account for a Hungarian blade. Apart from the Hungarian led Nicopolis Crusade, there were of course the Crusades of the Polish-Lithuanian King Vladislav III, during which Hungary was part of the Commonwealth and in which the famous Ian Hunyadi participated with his Hungarian troops. What I wonder though is if the sabre was already in use in Hungary at that time. I doubt that use of the sabre in Hungary survived from the 9th century to the 14th century and this is why I asked if it is found depicted in period images or if there are any examples with clear provenance and dating. I was going to discard a Tatar attribution based on the fact that early Golden Horde swords look very different, but I found the attached sword in Gutwski's catalogues on Tatar Arms. Based on what I can understand from the description in Polish, it is a sword in early 17th century mounts with an earlier, 15th century wootz blade of Syrian manufacture. Similar measurements to the sabre that is the subject of the thread: blade is 81.4 cm long and 3.8 cm wide, but it is more curved. In Astvatsaturian's book on Turkish arms is pictured a sword that belonged to Knyaz Feodor Mustislavich. It is obviously excellently preserved and a very ornate example, but the blade and crossguard shapes are similar to the relic that started this thread. The measurements are as follows: 86.4 cm long blade, 5.8 cm wide (obviously an imposing weapon). Mustislavich dies in 1540, which would place the blade to the early 16th, late 15th centuries. I am not necessarily pushing for a Turkish origin, and would be happy with a Hungarian (or other) attribution as long as I can see enough evidence to support this for the benefit of my friend and future readers of this thread. Once again, many thanks for the quick and excellent responses. Teodor Attached Images Last edited by TVV; 4th January 2012 at 04:44 AM.