Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - A navy cutlass i think, but ... where from ?

M ELEY · 14th July 2011, 04:48 AM

I confirmed that the typical length on these is 28 3/4". The tip isn't typical, so it could as we both surmised, be shortened, but there is also the chance that this is a varient (i.e. Spanish or Portuguese) pattern. As I mentioned in the PM to you, the British m1803/4 was a popular naval model that was both exported to Spain/Portugal after the wars as surplus, but also directly (these are the pieces that either lack the GR gov't stamp or have the Spanish crown imprint on them). If this pattern (the figure of 8 m1803) was so popular that it was made for other countries, there's no reason to immediately dismiss that the m1845 might not have been as well. Here are some points to consider-
#1. I am unaware of any specific naval cutlass pattern being used by Spain or Portugal during the 1800-50 time period. Prior naval swords were not regimental "model" swords, but just whatever one wished to carry to sea (much as the Americans, British, etc. The Dutch seemed to be the exception for the pre-1800 period). We know that the Spanish did go with the bowl-hilted cutlass similar to the French m1833 after 1860, as did the U.S.

#2. Many of the previously governed Spanish provinces in S. America and Mexico were using naval surplus swords or patterns copying the British and French pieces of the period.

#3. This one is an enigma that has bothered me for years, but here it goes. In Brinkerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America", he has pictured (in plate 204) a sword so closely resembling the m1845 British that there is no doubt they are the same with very minor differences. This sword has the cupped hilt that became popular with cutlasses post 1800-10, with the knuckle bow with outside ridges like the m1845 and earlier 1816 Starr boarding cutlass curling out to the pommel. The grip on Brinkerhoff's sword is wooden with leather covering, but it is ribbed and resembles the m1845 13 grooved hilt exactly (if I hadn't read it was wood/leather, I would have thought them a spot-on match). The blade of this one is exactly like the m1845, a nearly straight spear-pointed blade curving only at the very end.

This sword is marked "Artilleria" and dated 1819!! Now some cutlass types did serve artillery units, thus the confusion with so many ribbed brass hilt British cutlass patterns that served the mountain troopers, British Lifeguard, Naval police, etc. If we are to believe that this sword is not spuriously marked, it definately makes the case that the m1845 British pattern MIGHT have come from an earlier Spanish pattern. Does anyone have a scanner so that they could send us a pic of the sword I speak of? Mine is not readily availible.

In any case, this just proves once again just how many unanswered questions there are about this "grey area" of collecting. Naval stores were used, re-issued, altered, sold to other countries, etc, with very little records to help track them down. To this day, there is no solid consensus as to what our own U.S. Marine Corp carried in the 1790-1800 period of American history. All we can do is...more research!

14th July 2011, 04:48 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I confirmed that the typical length on these is 28 3/4". The tip isn't typical, so it could as we both surmised, be shortened, but there is also the chance that this is a varient (i.e. Spanish or Portuguese) pattern. As I mentioned in the PM to you, the British m1803/4 was a popular naval model that was both exported to Spain/Portugal after the wars as surplus, but also directly (these are the pieces that either lack the GR gov't stamp or have the Spanish crown imprint on them). If this pattern (the figure of 8 m1803) was so popular that it was made for other countries, there's no reason to immediately dismiss that the m1845 might not have been as well. Here are some points to consider- #1. I am unaware of any specific naval cutlass pattern being used by Spain or Portugal during the 1800-50 time period. Prior naval swords were not regimental "model" swords, but just whatever one wished to carry to sea (much as the Americans, British, etc. The Dutch seemed to be the exception for the pre-1800 period). We know that the Spanish did go with the bowl-hilted cutlass similar to the French m1833 after 1860, as did the U.S. #2. Many of the previously governed Spanish provinces in S. America and Mexico were using naval surplus swords or patterns copying the British and French pieces of the period. #3. This one is an enigma that has bothered me for years, but here it goes. In Brinkerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America", he has pictured (in plate 204) a sword so closely resembling the m1845 British that there is no doubt they are the same with very minor differences. This sword has the cupped hilt that became popular with cutlasses post 1800-10, with the knuckle bow with outside ridges like the m1845 and earlier 1816 Starr boarding cutlass curling out to the pommel. The grip on Brinkerhoff's sword is wooden with leather covering, but it is ribbed and resembles the m1845 13 grooved hilt exactly (if I hadn't read it was wood/leather, I would have thought them a spot-on match). The blade of this one is exactly like the m1845, a nearly straight spear-pointed blade curving only at the very end. This sword is marked "Artilleria" and dated 1819!! Now some cutlass types did serve artillery units, thus the confusion with so many ribbed brass hilt British cutlass patterns that served the mountain troopers, British Lifeguard, Naval police, etc. If we are to believe that this sword is not spuriously marked, it definately makes the case that the m1845 British pattern MIGHT have come from an earlier Spanish pattern. Does anyone have a scanner so that they could send us a pic of the sword I speak of? Mine is not readily availible. In any case, this just proves once again just how many unanswered questions there are about this "grey area" of collecting. Naval stores were used, re-issued, altered, sold to other countries, etc, with very little records to help track them down. To this day, there is no solid consensus as to what our own U.S. Marine Corp carried in the 1790-1800 period of American history. All we can do is...more research!