Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2010, 05:17 AM

Hi Teodor,
Thank you for responding personally, and I agree on the good suggestion by Rumpel. As Lee has agreed, many kaskaras haved met this unfortunate fate with these feeble efforts to simulate medieval swords, and Mr.Oakeshott has commented on this as well.
Obviously the trade routes account for the diffusion of these blades, and it is interesting to see this 'enigmatic' marking, which apparantly has distinct foundation on blades from Tuareg provenance, turning up mounted in kaskaras. This would diminish the ideas of the 'comet' association and the connections to the Mahdi in symbolism of the Sudan.

I think Briggs has the most probable track with this unusual marking, which he describes as resembling a 'flaming grenade' (p. 81). These markings are apparantly dramatically stylized interpretations of more European symbols found on a Tuareg chiefs sword from Air; with these renderings from a Tiounfara chiefs sword. Both swords were taken during rebellion of 1916-17.
To further describe the source of the marks, they are likely derived from Solingen markings from earlier North Italian marks and used in the 17th century, copied into the 19th.

I agree that the markings would certainly have been noticed by Mr.North, always an astute scholar on arms with considerable awareness of such details, thank you for adjusting that Stephen

It is interesting that the native armourers often copied certain marks somewhat faithfully when they were recognizable depictions, but these marks which were already elaborately stylized even in European use would have been perfectly acceptable to be interpreted with native perspective artistically.

I do think that many of the European talismanic marks were readily adopted as is by native armourers in many cases as they were easily dovetailed into existing folk religion symbolism, with its many celestial applications. The 'lohr' type panels on blades of course favored the crescent moon symbolism, and the star and sun face are seen as well, though I'm not sure the native armourers copied them as much as the moons. It would be tempting to consider the stylized bee type mark from Tuareg regions to have been adopted in the comet sense in the Sudan with these type motifs, but would need far more research to establish.

All best regards,
Jim

31st October 2010, 05:17 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	Hi Teodor, Thank you for responding personally, and I agree on the good suggestion by Rumpel. As Lee has agreed, many kaskaras haved met this unfortunate fate with these feeble efforts to simulate medieval swords, and Mr.Oakeshott has commented on this as well. Obviously the trade routes account for the diffusion of these blades, and it is interesting to see this 'enigmatic' marking, which apparantly has distinct foundation on blades from Tuareg provenance, turning up mounted in kaskaras. This would diminish the ideas of the 'comet' association and the connections to the Mahdi in symbolism of the Sudan. I think Briggs has the most probable track with this unusual marking, which he describes as resembling a 'flaming grenade' (p. 81). These markings are apparantly dramatically stylized interpretations of more European symbols found on a Tuareg chiefs sword from Air; with these renderings from a Tiounfara chiefs sword. Both swords were taken during rebellion of 1916-17. To further describe the source of the marks, they are likely derived from Solingen markings from earlier North Italian marks and used in the 17th century, copied into the 19th. I agree that the markings would certainly have been noticed by Mr.North, always an astute scholar on arms with considerable awareness of such details, thank you for adjusting that Stephen It is interesting that the native armourers often copied certain marks somewhat faithfully when they were recognizable depictions, but these marks which were already elaborately stylized even in European use would have been perfectly acceptable to be interpreted with native perspective artistically. I do think that many of the European talismanic marks were readily adopted as is by native armourers in many cases as they were easily dovetailed into existing folk religion symbolism, with its many celestial applications. The 'lohr' type panels on blades of course favored the crescent moon symbolism, and the star and sun face are seen as well, though I'm not sure the native armourers copied them as much as the moons. It would be tempting to consider the stylized bee type mark from Tuareg regions to have been adopted in the comet sense in the Sudan with these type motifs, but would need far more research to establish. All best regards, Jim