is it possible for blood/flesh to remain on a blade for over a century....
 

...and still be recognizable as such?



im thinking about bidding on a moro kris that looks rusty but that supposedly isnt, and its claimed that the rusty stains are actually human blood/flesh, the blade dates from the late 19th/early 20th century and is supposedly still sharp.


im not sure why someone would outright lie like that when theres every chance that the deception will be discovered by the buyer so im left with the possibility that this sword was actually used in battle.

im just wondering weather the seller's claim of the reddish and yellowish stains on the blade being blood/flesh and not rust should be taken seriously..........

That is a famous line. It is pretty doubtful that is the case

LOL, its not a 'nail from the true cross' is it?

The blood would corrode the ferrous metal, the oxidisation would push the 'blood' up from the surface as it became 'crusty', eventually it would flake off or just be indistinguishable from any other corroded stain or oxidisation.
I cant see it being recognisable after any amount of time, and anyway the blood would look black/dark brown anyway after a while.
Unless it was sealed in some oxygen free enviroment? ;-)

Sounds like a 'yarn' to me mate.

" Look out Charlie !! " :D :D













Do a search . ;)

::snort!:: :D

I got the same claim about one of the first dha I bought - that it had blood on it from the last Siamese-Burmese war (which was in 1767). Looking at the blade, its just a deep, irregular pit.

I would say that the stain (i.e., oxidation) left by blood can remain on the blade for a long time, but I agree that the blood itself would likely flake/rub off during the course of a century. If the balde were sealed (wax, varnish, oil, whatever), such that the blood didn't contact the blade, I suppose with care it could still be there, but IMO blood is too reactive to remain on exposed steel for that long.

PS: Supreme Kampilans Rule!!!! :D

BLOOD DOES HAVE A FAIRLY SHORT SHELF LIFE AS IT WILL ROT, DRY AND DEGRADE AS ALL THINGS FLESH DO. WITH TODAYS FORSENSIC SCIENCE IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TO DETERMINE IF A RUSTY, CRUSTY AREA IS BLOOD AND PERHAPS IF IT IS ANIMAL OR HUMAN BUT I INAGINE THERE WOULD BE A TIME LIMIT BEFORE IT WAS TOO FAR DEGRADED TO TEST. SOME OLD RUST PATTERNS ON BLADES MAY HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY BLOOD IN THE PAST AND AN EXPERT MIGHT BE ABLE TO TELL BY THE PATTERN OR SOMETHING BUT USUALLY IT IS JUST A STORY OR GUESS AS TO WHAT CAUSED THE STAINS OR RUST.

IN THE LATE 1970'S I BOUGHT A YATAGAN IN HOUSTON TEXAS, IT HAD A LOT OF THICK BLACK STICKY SUBSTANCE IN THE PROTECTED AREAS OF THE BLADE. I WASHED IT OFF AND IT PROVED TO BE BLOOD , I DON'T KNOW THE TYPE AND DID NOT REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY, BUT SOMETIMES I STILL WONDER ABOUT IT. :eek:

One other thing to consider. From what I have read of the Moro, no Moro would allow his sword to remain blood encrusted and thus rust. It would have been attended to at his earliest convenience. Buy the sword not the tale.

I've been in medicine for close to 20 years, as a paramedic and a nurse. I've seen a lot of crime scenes and bladed weapons used in these. Blood could corrode a blade, but the "stain" as far as we know it, would never remain. Blood is made up of cellular tissue that clots, dries, and flakes off. If we were talking about cloth/textiles, it would be a different story.

I agree that blood would not stain (color or tint) steel in the sense of a stain on cloth. What I meant was the black oxides of the corrosion, which might not necessarily include deep pitting, could remain as a black blotch on the surface of the metal.

this was said of one of skanderbeg's swords in a museum in the early 1900's:


"According to Faik Konica, who viewed the sword at the beginning of the 20th century, there were still stains of blood on the blade."

thats a romantic nationalst talking not a historian

I've got this old spear laying around, I dont really want it and its DEFINATELY got REAL blood stains all over it......
Any offers?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/30...cd492aca58.jpg

Nice spear head :rolleyes:

What is it ? Roman around the year 30 AD :confused: :D :D :D

Yeah, but its borken and no shaft, and the blood stains devalue it. :-(

How about remaining on paper ?
I have this 18th century small book, with an unknown but forcingly misterious history, in which some of the mistreated pages have some stains which i am fully convinced are blood stains; brownish shade, the more intense ones of a stiff texture, i would say. But this could well be my fantasy. It happens that this an original (or so) copy of a book written by a proeminent Portuguese Jew who was garroted by the Inquisition, and maybe that has unconsciently influenced me. But the stains are there and i don't see what else they would be :shrug: .
Sorry to go a bit off topic :o
Fernando

hi atlantia,

that gold sleeve adds a bit of value to it, but hollowing out the spine and wiring in an old nail surely detracts from the value, as does the repair adding those hanwei/paul chen viking wings to the original roman leaf shape. is there any markings on it? i suspect there may be a break in there somewhere what with all that wiring and such, probably take a lot of repair for it to go back into service. any blood will probably wash off and a good oiling is also in order. i'd take it off your hands & get it fixed up if you mail it to me. :D

Gentlemen, the swap forum is the proper place to do transactions of this type.

Paper is indeed one of the mediums that could hold a stain of blood. I've seen some crime scenes with such, spatter patterns on newspaper, etc. Just as Amer Indians used brain matter for tanning, think of your typical cloth/leather/linens/paper/etc as those that typically stain. As far as a corrosive blood stain? Well, I guess its possible, but how does one determine that the corrosion is truly from blood vs moisture/salt air(maritime)/water,etc,etc. It would seem like the bloody blade would have had to have been put in a drawer literally still clotting for awhile for this result. :shrug:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s.../topic_off.png
somehow i do not think the hofsburg hapsburg treasure museum in vienna will be offering the holy spear of destiny, aka the spear of longinus that pierced the side of christ.
http://minyanglee.com/pictures/wlance.jpg
the last time that it went walkies was when adolf hilter absconded with it and we know what that lead to. it makes the possessor invincible in battle and confers infinite power, hitler only started losing and went down in defeat after he lost possession of it.

we now return to our regularly scheduled topic.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...w/topic_on.png

p.s. - we wuz joking, not even bill gates could afford this item ;)

LOL!! :)
That little detour to the 'Spear of Longinus' was pretty good Atlantia! and its pretty amazing how instinctively everyone responded to what many would consider an extremely esoteric topic.

The subject of blood on old weapons, is of course a much romanticized notion. Often in conversations with people not involved in antique weapons, when I mentioned collecting swords, would curiously ask if any had blood on them. Since the unpleasant reality of weapons is thier true purpose, it seemed a logical question.

Since I typically went for weapons which were in stages nearly at the excavated level, the dark corrosion and deep patination made any such estimation unlikely. However, on some blades there would be patches of dark, blackened corrosion, very much like the black blotches described by Mark Eley . I often wondered if internal degradation or impurities might account for these in some way. I have understood that often the corrosion of iron objects can develop internally. I had an old cannon ball that retained its external integrity for many years, then when moved, literally disintegrated.

Since most weapons would have been cleaned after combat, it would seem that only weapons lost on the field of battle would be potentially viable for this phenomenon, and even then, it would be difficult to identify the corrosion from blood from other degradation over time deposited in the elements.
In many African and some other cultures, a weapon which had killed was considered tainted and had to undergo considerable cleansing and other ceremony to avoid the wrath and revenge of its victims. Even in medieval Europe, it was thought in early medicine that the anointment of the offending weapon was essential to heal the victim wounded by it ( uncertain of what was done if the victim was killed).

Turning to sacrificial weapons and objects, an interesting article from the New York Times ("Ceremonial Objects from West Africa with Blood in the Patina", Henry Fountain, December 2,2007) notes that wood sculptures in animal and human shapes known for dark patina have recently been revealed to have traces of blood potentially explaining the coloration. The eight items of Dogon and Bambara origin from Mali were studied by French scientists using precision chemical analysis and some of them contained heme (the iron containing molecule bound to hemoglobin). Some of them had only iron left from the proteins, while the heme had degraded away. These were late 19th century to early 20th century, though one described as over 500 years old.

While the scientific complexity of this study is far beyond my understanding, it is noted that such study is indeed possible for objects of wood, and I wonder if similar processes could be used on metal.

The discoloration of the patination also reminded me of a most interesting movie I once saw, "The Red Violin", which was themed along with the secret of the Stradivarius instruments, and suggesting that another maker had actually used blood in his varnish to captivate its ethereal sound.

Just some more thoughts on this interesting topic.



Addendum:
Just found another New York Times article,
"Stains on Prehistoric Tool are Human Blood" John Noble Wilford 12/1/87

Dark brown stains on 100,000 yr old stone cutting tool recently tested by scientist at U.C.Calif at san Francisco using radioimmunoassay have proven the stains are of human blood. These artifacts found in 1950's at what is known as Barda Balka site in Iraq were cited as having blood stains early in 1980's but proved controversial, though now proven by the new research.

In another item concerning blood stains on old weapons, noting the interest in earlier forensics :
"...when of old standing, or a rusty piece of metal, it is a matter of some difficulty to distinguish them from stains produced by rust or other causes".
"Medical Jurisprudence"
A.S.Taylor & E.Hartshorne (1856)
While obviously dated material, this simply illustrates that literary romanticism and ambitious arms enthusiasts comments in Victorian times clearly were issued independantly from scientific positions of the period.

Excellent research Chevalier!
What museum was this? Who was Faik Konika? Can you say the reference, page in case we would like to check further?

The power of Google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faik_Konica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_of_Skanderbeg

in keeping with the subtopic :)


is the "spear of longinus' one and the same as the "antioch arrow/lance" the crusaders found during the seige of antioch???

..and yes, i took the quote from a wikipedia page on the arms of skanderbeg.


ive been interested in surviving arms of kings/chiefs/military commanders in europe and elsewhere.

Busy minds are happy minds! :)
What the heck did we ever do before computers!!! Back in the old days I could never have imagined all this info at my fingertips.

Apparently not. Again, Wikipedia to the rescue (search "longinus spear"). :D According to that august authority, there are no less than three spears (in four different places): the "Vatican" spear (the tip of which is in Paris), the "Echmiadzin" spear (the one from Antioch, now in Armenia), and the "Vienna" spear (the one in this thread). The Vienna spear has been dated to no earlier than the 7th C, so it seems that it is the least likely of the three to be genuine.

Yes, but you did have papyrus available to you back then, didn't you, Jim? ;) :D

LOL!!! (as I try not to lose the swallow of soda on my keyboard!!!:)
That was good Andrew!!! I guess it has been a couple of years.
Thank you, that made my week!

Thank you Mark for the info on these spearheads, I really didn't know there were a number of them.

While this information is of course readily available online to all of us, I think it is great when material on a topic is compiled by someone into data that can be reviewed and discussed. This way we all learn together! (I know I keep saying that, but to me thats what its all about).

Thank you guys :)

The whole lance thing is a bit of a shame really. Of all of the purported Jesus relics, its the one that 'could' possibly have survived in reasonable order.
Well, and the nails of course, but even one of them makes an appearance as a 'guest star' in the Spear legends.
If memory serves, none are earlier than 3rd C. Still I'd like to have a Roman or Byzantine spear, so I'd not kick any of them out the door.

The 'real' one would be a sweet addition to a collection! Not many weapons have 'slain a god'.
Of course, in that 'parrallel universe', I'd swap it in a heartbeat for Excalibur!

heres the weapon i thought about bidding on with the purported "blood" on it....


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=230270071036



it stayed at 99 dollars until the last half hour or so of the auction.........i REALLY am at a loss as to how or why the price rose THAT MUCH in the last 20 or so minutes of the auction........i doubt this peice is worth that much......