Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   An unusual stiletto depicted in Indo-Persian miniatures. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31014)

Turkoman.khan 1st November 2025 09:36 PM

An unusual stiletto depicted in Indo-Persian miniatures.
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unusual stiletto depicted in Indo-Persian miniatures.

Overall length: 340 mm
Handle diameter: 12 mm
Scabbard length: 385 mm

The blade bears the inscription: “Yadigar Muhammad Khan ibn Qasin Khan.”

Based on the name in the inscription, the weapon is attributed to Yadigar Muhammad, the last Khan of the Kazan Khanate. The title in the inscription dates it to 1552.

It is housed in the Royal Danish Kunstkamera (Museum of Ethnography), where it arrived as part of diplomatic gifts from the Russian Tsars to the Danish Kings in 1580 or 1622.

I would like to ask forum members interested in the edged weapons of the Indo-Persian region and Central Asia:
have you ever come across similar stilettos in private collections or museum holdings?

Battara 2nd November 2025 02:03 AM

Great koftgari work! Many thanks for posting.

Jim McDougall 2nd November 2025 06:30 PM

This is most intriguing! and certainly an anomaly so not surprising it is not well represented in miniatures, which seem to be virtually the only resource with which to identify many weapon forms and approximate period associated in study of these regions.

This narrow blade is of course contrary to the various knives and daggers of Central Asian regions which include, kard ; pesh kabz; khanjhar, karud and Qama, however on some the needle point is featured. Otherwise they are all full bladed.

What is unusual on this is that it seems almost a rapier blade, and almost as in the manner of a sword cane, or swagger stick with the weapon concealed. While that particular convention seems to have arisen in Europe possibly from colonial situations in India much later, it is tempting to consider the idea of a concealed weapon in Persian context with their innovations in weapons.

The stiletto dagger seems to have evolved in Italy in latter 16th century or slightly earlier, from the rondel daggers and misercordes, secondary weapons for knights. The misercorde was with thin blade to issue 'coup de grace' to fallen foes in armor, and could reach through separations in the plate etc.
It became a favored weapon of assassins for its deadly penetration and being easily concealed.

It would seem this example may have been intended as a concealed weapon as noted, in the context of a stick or such item carried by a person of status or courtly accoutrement.

In hoping to find something comparable I reached a colleague who is probably one of the most well versed in Islamic arms and of these contexts I know.
He noted from the photo that he would not have regarded this example quite as early as suggested by the date in the inscription.

He was not surprised that such an item was not well represented in the miniatures, as the estoc type Ottoman thrusting weapon known as the 'MEC' also is not seen represented in these.

The calligraphy is described as of early form but not particularly well executed, and overall the decoration not as refined as would be expected.

There was of course considerable diplomatic contact between Russia and these Khanates in the periods suggested from 16th c. so of course the connections are well established.

It would be tempting to consider this a European rapier blade, fashioned to be concealed in a 'stick' as earlier suggested, but unclear on the section of the blade, and whether the date stated (1552) would correspond to rapier blades in that time frame. Still the notion seemed worthy of note.

ausjulius 2nd November 2025 10:11 PM

The Mongols, kipchaks and their ancestors had a number of armour piercing dagger like weapons. . Hence the word for a dagger in many middle eastern, arabic, , Slavic and such languages in based on the Mongol and Turkic word for a dagger. Khanjar, kinzhal, kinjal and so on. I
I'd imagine such or similar weapons were infact very common with these nomads in the mediaeval period but we simple don't see them often. Just like examples of their swords s are rare. Not because they didn't have them but because they didn't have a place to keep them for 800 years. Nomads C cultures isn't good with that.
Among the bulgar Tatars various armour piercing knives and daggers were produced and retained as status items up until the 18th -19th century as was the chechuga sabre which by the 1800 was a bit archaic in Russia.
You can also see quite a few sabres with armour piercing tips on the Mongols swords from the mediaeval period.
Id say these things were probably very common infact. Just as they were in mediaeval Europe considering how common armour was .
But we just don't get many surviving examples and I think those nomads got fast assimilated into whatever cultures they conquered pretty fast. And it was hardly like people collected and catalogued these things either.
In Europe we have had people making Museums since the mediaeval period and storing old weapons in them. So we have this insane array of items catalogued but no doubt in other cultures there wasa y interesting things that have just vanished that were probably once common

Jim McDougall 3rd November 2025 05:41 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Thank you for your entry Ausjulius! You are an intrepid soul to venture into this complex and perplexing subject matter. For those of here in the west, these topics are daunting with the lack of resources in English, as well as the many misnomers, errors and presumptions issued by western writers in the recent centuries. These 'chestnuts' have become so entrenched in the literature that it is hard to pursue serious study on the ethnic and historical character of the many peoples actually involved.

For example the ethnonym Tatar, which is so broadly applied it has become almost cliche' in many cases. When trying to study the weapons used by these people, this factor presents many challenges.

The case of the needle point sabers we know in general as 'ordynka' or czeczuga are one such example. These are the sabers with the sharp point generally regarded as 'armor (Mail) piercing, and with the similar type point seen on pesh babz, and various of the other daggers in these contexts.

These needle points were obviously for thrusting, and deemed armor piercing as presumbably the narrow point would enter the mail in a link, spreading it to allow penetration. The thing is, while that effect with mail seems likely, even more so it was to penetrate the heavily padded garments which served not only against cold, but as formidable armor to guard against arrows and slashing cuts from swords.

Clearly the advantage to these edged weapons with these needle points was well known and existed broadly in the arms throughout Central Asia, and with these sabers in Poland and the Caucusus, with these ordynka sabers.

Getting to the situation with the needle point stiletto, this is a far different example than any of these needle point weapons well known as Central Asian as well as Caucasian and Polish as far as the sabers...with most of the daggers of this character more to Central Asia and India.

As far as I have discovered thus far, though the stiletto (needle point dagger) was developed in Italy in the early 16th century, the form was not known to be used as such in Central Asian contexts despite the obviously well known needle point edged weapons in other forms.

In "History of the Fighting Arts" , G.K.Panchenko, Moscow, 1997, Vol. 3, p.305 he notes that the 'czeczuga' comes from the Tatarian people Chechan that lived in the Caucusus". and notes the subgroup Adyghe Bzhedukh tribe, Charcheney.

Images of these needle points from "Weapons of the Caucasian Nations", Emma Astvatsaturyan show these as used from 14th into 17th c. and they certainly carried further well through 18th.

The single image is from
Bron i Uzbrujenie Tatarow (Arms and Armor of the Tatars)
J.Gutowski , and of c. 1600

The term ordynka= horde.....refers to the diffused Tatar tribes which were united into the Mongol hordes.

the term czeczuga = sturgeon, the fish hide used often on the hilts of these swords, as loosely explained.

Most of this I retrieved from a 2006 post here using 'search'.
These topics have been discussed many times over past two decades, and we have remarkable resources archived here which we can rely on.

serdar 3rd November 2025 07:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
About this oriental stilleto, i found in Croato/Bosnian book from the first half of 20 century similar weapon, it is made all from steel handle is 13 cm long, overall 155cm long, it has wooden sheet with metal, and is marked PM they supose for blacksmith Peter Munch, it looks very similar to this one, it is called ŠIŠ, there are allso smaller versions.
Its meant to pierce armour, that weapon is even hosted in heroic folk tales and songs like jatagan, handzar etc. are.
Funy thing is that šiš is caled also bosnian specialty food šiš cevap, meat on a scevar 😁😃
This example is in Sarajevo museum.

P.s. Larger one, smaller one is italian/german stilleto without the guard.

Turkoman.khan 4th November 2025 07:25 PM

5 Attachment(s)
From the early 16th century, Iranian miniatures depict figures wearing a two-piece set consisting of either a long knife and a long stiletto, or two knives of different or equal lengths. By the late 16th century and until the end of the first quarter of the 17th century, this set evolved into a long stiletto and a dagger worn on the belt. In some cases, only a single long stiletto or knife appears.
This combination is shown in miniatures not only on warriors but also on civilians. It is noteworthy that the stiletto, in its sheath, simply hangs from the belt—indicating that it was not a concealed weapon hidden in a staff or cane.

The fashion of carrying a knife and stiletto likely originated in the 15th century within territories influenced by the Golden Horde—politically, militarily, and culturally. It became widespread across Iran, Central Asia, Russia, and the Kazan Khanate. However, it is remarkable that despite the frequent depictions of stilettos in miniatures, only one known example has survived to this day: the stiletto belonging to Khan Yadigar Muhammad.

David R 4th November 2025 10:06 PM

Very nice, thank you for these pictures.

ausjulius 5th November 2025 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall (Post 300572)
Thank you for your entry Ausjulius! You are an intrepid soul to venture into this complex and perplexing subject matter. For those of here in the west, these topics are daunting with the lack of resources in English, as well as the many misnomers, errors and presumptions issued by western writers in the recent centuries. These 'chestnuts' have become so entrenched in the literature that it is hard to pursue serious study on the ethnic and historical character of the many peoples actually involved.

For example the ethnonym Tatar, which is so broadly applied it has become almost cliche' in many cases. When trying to study the weapons used by these people, this factor presents many challenges.

The case of the needle point sabers we know in general as 'ordynka' or czeczuga are one such example. These are the sabers with the sharp point generally regarded as 'armor (Mail) piercing, and with the similar type point seen on pesh babz, and various of the other daggers in these contexts.

These needle points were obviously for thrusting, and deemed armor piercing as presumbably the narrow point would enter the mail in a link, spreading it to allow penetration. The thing is, while that effect with mail seems likely, even more so it was to penetrate the heavily padded garments which served not only against cold, but as formidable armor to guard against arrows and slashing cuts from swords.

Clearly the advantage to these edged weapons with these needle points was well known and existed broadly in the arms throughout Central Asia, and with these sabers in Poland and the Caucusus, with these ordynka sabers.

Getting to the situation with the needle point stiletto, this is a far different example than any of these needle point weapons well known as Central Asian as well as Caucasian and Polish as far as the sabers...with most of the daggers of this character more to Central Asia and India.

As far as I have discovered thus far, though the stiletto (needle point dagger) was developed in Italy in the early 16th century, the form was not known to be used as such in Central Asian contexts despite the obviously well known needle point edged weapons in other forms.

In "History of the Fighting Arts" , G.K.Panchenko, Moscow, 1997, Vol. 3, p.305 he notes that the 'czeczuga' comes from the Tatarian people Chechan that lived in the Caucusus". and notes the subgroup Adyghe Bzhedukh tribe, Charcheney.

Images of these needle points from "Weapons of the Caucasian Nations", Emma Astvatsaturyan show these as used from 14th into 17th c. and they certainly carried further well through 18th.

The single image is from
Bron i Uzbrujenie Tatarow (Arms and Armor of the Tatars)
J.Gutowski , and of c. 1600

The term ordynka= horde.....refers to the diffused Tatar tribes which were united into the Mongol hordes.

the term czeczuga = sturgeon, the fish hide used often on the hilts of these swords, as loosely explained.

Most of this I retrieved from a 2006 post here using 'search'.
These topics have been discussed many times over past two decades, and we have remarkable resources archived here which we can rely on.

Hi Jim , yeah the whole Tatar thing its the bane of the Kazan bulgar people.

.. but most Bulgar people in Russia just accept its common for other people to call them "tatars".. which definitely is not their name for themselves.

in a similar vein Russians call china "Khitai" after a group of mongols who ruled over China before the "other" mongols under ghingis khan - the ones we know in the west took over china.
old naming conventions persist even if they are often misnomers.
.
the tatar confederation -mostly mongolised turkic tribes on the mongolian plateau- were a large part of the mongolian armies when they invaded the Russians lands.

Later the vast majority of these nomads became muslims..so any turkic speaking nomad became a Tatar in Russian parlance....
these folks went all over the near east spreading their language, weapons, martial culture and customs and conquering the people there.


the fact that the word for dagger has a turco-mongol origin in most of these cultures they conquered implies (at least in my eyes) that most likely they did indeed use daggers very frequently and imparted that word on the locals some how..

its just their arms didnt survive or didnt stay in use long and were replaced by native arms.

period accounts of the mongols and other turkic nomads of the day mention nets, hooks on lances, weighted throwing clubs, maces, daggers and javelins or darts and large knives as being very common weapons used along side the curved long sabres, lances and bows were are familiar with.

in art frequently these weapons are missing.

for example very large belt knives were commonly used, like a very long heavy bladed mongol belt knife with a long handle (35-40cm blade and a 20 cm handle for example or even bigger- and thick 8-9mm in the spine often).

parts of their blades exist in archeological finds..
these big knives even survived into the modern era in some of these turkic or mongolic ethnic groups and in cultures they influenced,
but i think ive seen only one 18th or 19th century russian sketch showing these big belt knives being worn ..
and no medieval drawings i can think of.

these were every day utility knives and common weapons.
used to butcher animals, cut wood, defense and so on.
worn on the back of the waist.

but we dont see any examples in art. just as daggers seem very rare too.

but it doesn't mean they were not widespread at the time.

i think with nomadic cultures its very hard to locate historical items, and on top of it the artists drawing these people were mostly from cultures where these nomads were invading them - not members of the nomadic societies.
id guess many time they missed quite a few things. even if they got many things very correct too.

so when we see these nomadic rulers in art with stiletto daggers on their belts its probably because the artists were familiar with these people by that point. but prior to that what did they wear on their belts when they were less familiar..
its just easy to give the curvy swords and bows in artwork too and not always apply all the details that the artist may not know themselves.


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