Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Edged arms in Varazdin castle (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30356)

Victrix 14th December 2024 12:22 PM

Edged arms in Varazdin castle
 
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Varazdin castle is situated in Varazdin county North of Zagreb in Croatia near the Hungarian border. The castle was surrounded by massive earthen ramparts with double water moats. Due to its strategic location it was regarded as the key/gateway to Styria in Austria. There’s a granary on the castle grounds which served as the armoury for Slavonia. The castle museum also houses a modest arms collection.

Victrix 14th December 2024 12:26 PM

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More pics

Victrix 14th December 2024 12:33 PM

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Some more pics

Victrix 14th December 2024 12:37 PM

Additional pics

Victrix 14th December 2024 03:10 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 294766)
Additional pics

Last few

Victrix 14th December 2024 03:31 PM

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Object info (google transl. from Croatian): Pandur sword, blade German
Solingen, first half18th century, steel, Bone. Belonged
to officer of the company of Pandur, a soldier
from among the pardoned Slavonians hajduk.
Changed the military formation in the empress's army
Marije Theresa of Austria-Hungary.
Were led by a celebrated Slavonian baron
Franjo von der Trenck. The Pandurs under his leadership
successfully fought battles in Silesia, Bavaria and Austria.
Blade engraved with figures in the image of Pandur in the panel
war and inscription: VIVAT PANDUR.

Victrix 28th December 2024 10:18 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 294771)
Object info (google transl. from Croatian): Pandur sword, blade German
Solingen, first half18th century, steel, Bone. Belonged
to officer of the company of Pandur, a soldier
from among the pardoned Slavonians hajduk.
Changed the military formation in the empress's army
Marije Theresa of Austria-Hungary.
Were led by a celebrated Slavonian baron
Franjo von der Trenck. The Pandurs under his leadership
successfully fought battles in Silesia, Bavaria and Austria.
Blade engraved with figures in the image of Pandur in the panel
war and inscription: VIVAT PANDUR.

I wonder if our member gp could verify the above Google translation from the museum description pictured below? The Google translation looks a little shaky to me, but should be important in identifying an actual pandur sword in what was once their original habitat.

Reventlov 5th January 2025 06:50 PM

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Thank you for sharing! My taste runs rather old... Do you happen to have more photos or information about the medieval sword at right here? It seems like it may have a maker's mark of a sword or dagger, which can be found on several notable weapons of this time.

gp 5th January 2025 07:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 294968)
I wonder if our member gp could verify the above Google translation from the museum description pictured below? The Google translation looks a little shaky to me, but should be important in identifying an actual pandur sword in what was once their original habitat.

You're welcome and no problem !

or as they say in the former Yugoslavia : nema problema:)
Hereby the translation of the Croatian text:

Pandur knife, German Blade from Solingen, first half18th century,
Steel, Bone and Iron Wire

Owned by a member of the Pandur Unit, (being) a volunteer of the Slavanion Hajduks. a wellknown militairy formation in Maria-Theresia's army,
under the leadership of Baron Franjo ( = Croatian for Franz / Frank) von der Trenck in Slavonia.
Under his leadership the Pandurs successfully fought battles in Silesia, Bavaria and Austria.

The cutting part of the blade is engraved with a Pandur and inscription: VIVAT PANDUR. (= long live the Pandur)

on hajduk:

A hajduk (Hungarian: hajdúk, plural of hajdú 'foot-soldier') is a type of irregular infantry found in Central, Eastern, and parts of Southeast Europe from the late 16th to mid 19th centuries, especially from Hajdú-Bihar . More info : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk
FYI: Hajduk Split, they used to be a quite good football team in the EUFA cups from Croatia

on Pandurs:

The Pandurs were a skirmisher unit of the Habsburg monarchy, raised by Baron Franz von der Trenck following a charter (German: Werbepatent) issued by Maria Theresa of Austria on 27 February 1741, permitting Trenck to raise a 1,000-strong troop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenck%27s_Pandurs
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Pandur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandur
a nice visualization of them ( double click on each picture):
https://steffenvoelkel.com/occult-sa...-2-2-2-2-3-2-3

hope this answers your question.

take care and have a nice day !

Gunar

gp 5th January 2025 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov (Post 295116)
Thank you for sharing! My taste runs rather old... Do you happen to have more photos or information about the medieval sword at right here? It seems like it may have a maker's mark of a sword or dagger, which can be found on several notable weapons of this time.

you can contact them directly, try this link:
https://www.gmv.hr/en/

Victrix 5th January 2025 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp (Post 295117)
You're welcome and no problem !

or as they say in the former Yugoslavia : nema problema:)
Hereby the translation of the Croatian text:

Pandur knife, German Blade from Solingen, first half18th century,
Steel, Bone and Iron Wire

Owned by a member of the Pandur Unit, (being) a volunteer of the Slavanion Hajduks. a wellknown militairy formation in Maria-Theresia's army,
under the leadership of Baron Franjo ( = Croatian for Franz / Frank) von der Trenck in Slavonia.
Under his leadership the Pandurs successfully fought battles in Silesia, Bavaria and Austria.

The cutting part of the blade is engraved with a Pandur and inscription: VIVAT PANDUR. (= long live the Pandur)

on hajduk:

A hajduk (Hungarian: hajdúk, plural of hajdú 'foot-soldier') is a type of irregular infantry found in Central, Eastern, and parts of Southeast Europe from the late 16th to mid 19th centuries, especially from Hajdú-Bihar . More info : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk
FYI: Hajduk Split, they used to be a quite good football team in the EUFA cups from Croatia

on Pandurs:

The Pandurs were a skirmisher unit of the Habsburg monarchy, raised by Baron Franz von der Trenck following a charter (German: Werbepatent) issued by Maria Theresa of Austria on 27 February 1741, permitting Trenck to raise a 1,000-strong troop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenck%27s_Pandurs
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Pandur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandur
a nice visualization of them ( double click on each picture):
https://steffenvoelkel.com/occult-sa...-2-2-2-2-3-2-3

hope this answers your question.

take care and have a nice day !

Gunar

Many thanks, Gunar! Much appreciated. :)

Victrix 5th January 2025 09:40 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov (Post 295116)
Thank you for sharing! My taste runs rather old... Do you happen to have more photos or information about the medieval sword at right here? It seems like it may have a maker's mark of a sword or dagger, which can be found on several notable weapons of this time.

Must confess that I was more focused on the panzerstecher there on the left at the time, but you may be on to something. You are in luck, Reventlov! I took pics of the museum description and also post another pic of the sword below. The description mentions it’s a crusader sword. The Knights Hospitallers were based in Varazdin in early 13thC and built a church and monastery there which were later taken over by the Franciscans.

Reventlov 7th January 2025 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 295121)
Must confess that I was more focused on the panzerstecher there on the left at the time, but you may be on to something. You are in luck, Reventlov! I took pics of the museum description and also post another pic of the sword below. The description mentions it’s a crusader sword. The Knights Hospitallers were based in Varazdin in early 13thC and built a church and monastery there which were later taken over by the Franciscans.

That's great, thank you!

A fine example of a very classic type of the later 14th century. There is a sword of the exactly the same type (XVII, H1, 1) in the Hungarian National Museum, though I know it only by description. This one has on side the mark of a sword, on the other two swords, also in yellow metal. Oakeshott provides two more examples in Records of the Medieval Sword, including a well-known great sword in the London Museum, and it reportedly appears on the bearing sword of Edward III in Westminster Abbey.

On the tang of the Varazdin sword you can also see what is probably a mark like an X, which appears on many Eastern European swords of this period.

urbanspaceman 7th January 2025 10:27 AM

Victrix
 
Thank-you... fascinating.

Victrix 11th January 2025 09:12 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Intererestingly the Google translation reads: “Crusader sword. Made of forged iron in 14thC. The blade is sharp with damasked gold cross. It was found near the river Bedjna at Pusta Bela fortress.” Turns out Pusta Bela fortress, 16km South of Varazdin, was built by the Knight Hospitallers and the nearby town is named after them to this day. Legend has it that King Richard Lionheart stayed here on his way back from the Holy Land. It’s known that King Richard financed the construction of the cathedral in Ragusa (Dubrovnik) after surviving a shipwreck there so it’s not too farfetched.

Reventlov 14th January 2025 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 295299)
Intererestingly the Google translation reads: “Crusader sword. Made of forged iron in 14thC. The blade is sharp with damasked gold cross. It was found near the river Bedjna at Pusta Bela fortress.” Turns out Pusta Bela fortress, 16km South of Varazdin, was built by the Knight Hospitallers and the nearby town is named after them to this day. Legend has it that King Richard Lionheart stayed here on his way back from the Holy Land. It’s known that King Richard financed the construction of the cathedral in Ragusa (Dubrovnik) after surviving a shipwreck there so it’s not too farfetched.

If the Hospitallers were present until 1405, then the apparent dating (late 14th) of the sword allows for it to belonged to one of them, though being found nearby does not guarantee this.

I wonder if the label "crusader sword" at least partly stems from the "gold cross" on the blade - I think you can often find the term used casually in such cases. I suspect the marking is the same as the one which I take to be the shape of a sword or dagger. From what I can see, the proportions better match examples of the latter than actual cross markings, which are common and need not all be associated with crusaders.

Victrix 14th January 2025 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov (Post 295369)
If the Hospitallers were present until 1405, then the apparent dating (late 14th) of the sword allows for it to belonged to one of them, though being found nearby does not guarantee this.

I wonder if the label "crusader sword" at least partly stems from the "gold cross" on the blade - I think you can often find the term used casually in such cases. I suspect the marking is the same as the one which I take to be the shape of a sword or dagger. From what I can see, the proportions better match examples of the latter than actual cross markings, which are common and need not all be associated with crusaders.

My translation might be a bit dodgy. Not sure there were special swords as standard issue to crusaders. I think the museum description meant more a sword likely to have been used by crusaders. Which is fair given that it was found in their organised centre. The Knight Hospitallers often came from the high nobility and can be expected to have been armed with high quality arms. Or as you say the sword might have belonged to a secular visitor to their centre. Who really knows.

serdar 22nd March 2025 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 295402)
My translation might be a bit dodgy. Not sure there were special swords as standard issue to crusaders. I think the museum description meant more a sword likely to have been used by crusaders. Which is fair given that it was found in their organised centre. The Knight Hospitallers often came from the high nobility and can be expected to have been armed with high quality arms. Or as you say the sword might have belonged to a secular visitor to their centre. Who really knows.

You translated it right, museum indeed did write exactly Crusader sword.
As it belonged to crusaders.
Museums as far as Croatia is in picture, made a bunch of mistakes, and wrong atributions, or exact atributions that cant be proven in any way.

In Zagreb two history museum ex curators wrote books on yatagans and they write a bunch of noncenses and wrong stuf about production of them.

In Split museum they claim and they are proud that they have two “oldest” yatagans from 15 and 16 century and they claim that in their books, exhibitions atc. And those yatagans are Albanian made (Prizren) low quality silver, early 20 century yatagans with false year engraved, meant to scam collectors of antique weapons in those days.

Today curator of history museum doesent make diference between butter knife and kard.

And the list goes on.
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