Coyness in posting keris pics
 

Why is it there a marked reluctance amongst keris folk to share images of their keris? Is this Indonesian etiquette or is it to do with attributing the keris with some sort of lifelike quality whereby sharing images is akin to putting up images of a person for the world to gawk at or is it something else such as people judging a keris and casting aspersions on the custodian? I would be very interested to know.

Sid, I think the line between those who will post photos of their keris for all the world to see, and those who will not is defined by personal standards.

The pure collectors are usually more than happy to display their possessions, whereas the people who are students of the keris and who have learnt that the etiquette in most, if not all keris bearing cultures is to keep those keris that they regard as personal keris hidden from the eyes of strangers.

Only close, trusted friends will be welcome to see the keris of a person who tries to observe the keris etiquette that is present in keris bearing cultures.

Thanks Alan
This makes sense but raises a further question. What is the rationale or underlying premise of this widespread etiquette? It seems unique as other blade bearing societies dont share this. Is this something to do with the esoteric elements of keris? What would be the undesired result if this etiquette was breached and keris were openly discussed in these societies? If the view of keris in these societies has changed given our current times then is this etiquette as a cultural aspect also not amenable to be challenged? I am trying to develop my eframework here as I do feel conflicted with sharing stuff but I am by no means a student of keris per se. I am just a very mediocre collector of lower end items.

My reasons are several, but here are some main ones in no particular order.

First is out of respect for the Javanese mother culture of the keris.
I'm not Javanese, but now that I have a deep interest in one of their essential artefacts, it seems only appropriate to afford it the same etiquettes and conventions.

Second is related to the first in that it is a very small way of better understanding Javanese thought.
Cultures other than your own can be hard to understand, but when you intentionally start to adopt certain ways of thinking, seeing and acting, sometimes it can provide some small but important glimmers of understanding. Though it does make it easier that I am partly of a culture has a shared history with the Jawa people.

As a result of 1 and 2 I consider now consider the keris to be a somewhat sensitive subject. So I am increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of displaying keris that are personal, with even some reluctance for keris that I would consider selling soon, unless its to someone I at the very least trust and have good rapport with. All I can say for now is that it feels tactless and I don't yet fully understand why.

Hi Sid,

I know someone who does not share his collections openly mainly because he does not want to educate unwanted people by whatever small knowledge that might be generated from the photos/online knowledge sharing.

Some people likes being seen as keris specialist with little or no knowledge at all and many of this people have communication skills of a snake oil salesman. They can be very confident making statements with their make believe knowledge or knowledge that they just dig up online from other people's sharing to impress the public or his followers. And a lot of times these people mislead the public and his followers. Some can even make money out of it.

Obtaining keris knowledge is hard, you need to learn a lot of things, takes a long time and costs a lot. And the last thing this person want to do is to educate arrogant, pretentious people. To each their own I guess.

Sid, my approach to this idea of sharing a personal keris with strangers began the very first time I went to Indonesia. I visited Jogja, I could not speak Indonesian, I hired a guide to show me around.

We were in the North Alun-alun and I saw one of the Jogja Kraton attendants (abdi dalem) dressed in traditional attire and with an interesting keris in his setagen (sash). I asked my guide if it might be possible ask this Javanese gentleman to see his keris. I was as green as grass. It was explained to me that if I were to do this it would be the height of bad manners and that there was no way of predicting the result of my rudeness.

In Jawa & in other keris bearing societies, a man's keris represents the man himself. To permit somebody to see that keris is exactly the same as permitting somebody to see you absolutely naked, but more than this, you not only expose your body, you expose your soul, along with all your hopes, dreams and fears.

It is a cultural thing Sid, and those people who wish to demonstrate respect to the culture from which the keris has come do not permit strangers to see keris that they might have in their custody.

Thanks for your responses thus far. I can see why sharing pics may serve to enrich dishonest people. And I see also how in Java etc showing a keris can reveal a lot to strangers. But arent the reasons for this as follows:
1. Those keris are of deep personal significance with them being made to suit the owner or ancestral objects.
2. People only had one keris generally and did not seek to acquire collections as we know

Now we have a context where keris are traded internationally as commodities on the online market. Collectors buy large numbers of these based on various criteria. The keris is not made for them and is not an ancestral object. It is an object of art totally removed from the context Alan described I would think. A cherished keris today can on a whim be sold off the next. There is not remotely the connection between keris and custodian as occurs in the home nations. On this basis then this practice of not sharing keris images might be seen as merely giving a cursory whimsical, respectful and well meaning superficial nod to the culture but nothing more. A harsher view might be that this is a bit of convenient cultural appropriation. And might it be said that the collector who does post images recognises that they are not operating in the home nation cultural context at all and their appreciation is of a different but no less disrespectful flavour. Like a western appreciation of fine art in its purest sense? I again emphasise I mean no disrespect to anyone. I am only trying to find my own way through this ethical morass. I know there is no right or wrong way. But is there a better way to act?

This is what I have experienced personally where your keris photo has been used by scammers who use it to scam unaware victims who thinks the keris belongs to the scammers.

After paying for it, the scammers just disappear.

Actually Sid, most collectors do not have problems with showing their acquisitions to whomever may wish to look.

That is exactly what I said in post #2:-

"The pure collectors are usually more than happy to display their possessions, whereas the people who are students of the keris and who have learnt that the etiquette in most, if not all keris bearing cultures is to keep those keris that they regard as personal keris hidden from the eyes of strangers."

The people who do not want to display their keris are those who are culturally conscious. Very often they are people who have had some contact with the culture, and/or society of the places where keris are viewed as sacred objects, iconic objects, religious objects. In my own case, I have many years of contact with members of Javanese & Balinese society, I have been instructed at length in the correct way to behave over many years by people whom I respect and who in turn respect me. I would not ever betray the trust that my friends and teachers have placed in me.

But an ordinary collector, especially a collector in a society that is outside the core society of origin of the keris does not bear the obligations that I, and some other people bear. A pure collector rarely knows very much about what he collects, many collectors of keris feel very satisfied with their level of knowledge if they can identify a Surakarta keris as distinct from a Jogja keris.

I can see no real reason why a collector who only focuses on names and physical attributes of keris should hide his keris from other people.

Essentially Sid, whether to show or not to show is a personal decision once we move outside the society of origin, if one is comfortable with letting everybody in the entire world seeing what they lock into their double dial Chubb safe in the security room, then by all means go ahead and show. Those who are not comfortable with letting anybody except close friends look at what they have, well then, of course they will act a trifle more conservatively.

Personal decision Sid:- do it or don't do it, its up to you.

I have come across this a couple of times outside of this forum ( on the forum I have also read , can't remember were exactly or by whom, that some members weren't inclined to show their own " private" kris' images and I certainly respect that.)

However I came across a couple of times people selling their kris and showing it only sheathed, now that, frankly, I don't understand.

I tried to say to them that logic, would demand that if I were to purchase, especially at a distance, a kris, I would need to look at the blade.

The answer was that they were told that it was bad luck to show a kris' blade.

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

You seem to be in a different, but somewhat similar position to my own David.

Sometimes I would very much like to show a photo of something in order to provide clarification, but I do not do this simply because I know it is something that would be frowned upon by a number of people and for those people it would mark me as a pretender.

But I do show keris from my personal collection when I have decided to move that keris to a new owner. When this happens I move the keris to items identified for sale, rather than items identified for collection.

There is another reason that some people do not like showing collection items in a place where strangers can see those things, and this applies not only to collectors of keris.

It is the same reason that they do not show items of jewellery or other valuables, the same reason why they maintain a security room, the same reason why they instal a safe, the same reason why they make sure that their home address is removed from public records.

One other reason some folks avoid posting their keris, especially multiple detailed images, is to keep unscrupulous characters from stealing those photos and attempting to sell keris they do not possess to unwary collectors. This is a common scam.

Yeah, I've heard of this David, but I've never encountered it, I have an almost invisible presence on social media --- more now than I have previously held --- & I do not buy on the internet.

But I do not for a moment doubt that it does happen, if there is a way to scam in any field, the scamsters will find it.

We can put as many controls as we like into a system, and eventually a control will pick up a scam, but it is is often the detective control, rather than the preventive control that picks up the scam.

The bad guys are nearly always one step ahead.

Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?

Of course, Bernie's story didn't turnout too well for him in the end. ;)

As I said David:- detective control

It all happens, somebody suffers loss, then we catch the baddies.

That's what audit & compliance is about, and as I understand it, in Bernies case the preventive controls screwed up badly:- human failure.

I found it rather strange, how can we as a buyer buy a keris without looking at the bilah condition first. No view, equals to no pay.

Hi David, my good friend. Could you be so kind to break out the comments in paragraphs so that making reading easily. Thanks

I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons).

Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well.

In short, it is just personal choice.

I agree completely Green.

Absolutely a personal choice.

However, for the traditionalists of Central Jawa whom I know and have known, that personal choice was and is to observe the ways of their forefathers, and these ways include and have included the non-display of personal keris.

The people who arrange keris exhibitions do so to exhibit keris, most would be dealers, makers, collectors. If there were any Central Javanese traditionalists amongst them I would be prepared to place a wager that none of these traditionalists had placed a keris that he regarded as a personal keris, on display.

In fact, I can very clearly recall a discussion between some gentlemen I used to know (all have passed now) in Solo during the 1980's who were debating the morality of putting keris on display.

Some of these men were of the opinion that it was quite OK to display keris, provided that the keris displayed were not keris that a person regarded as his personal property.

Others maintained that the only time a keris should be shown to other than close, trusted friends was when that keris was being offered for sale.

But others thought that apart from being morally wrong to display keris that were in one's custody, it was an act of extremely poor taste to engage in any act of display, be that display of keris or any other object. To these men it was just plain bad manners, indicative of a person who had no personal standards, or who "was not yet Javanese", ie, one who behaved like a child.

So --- yes personal choice, and we all have our own standards.

I have a bit digressing question about personal keris for our fellow forum member Alan.

On keeping a personal keris private, does this include the secrecy of the dhapur/pamor type of the particular keris and the naming (Kiyai X and Kyai Y) of the keris?

If the dhapur is a secret, I would imagine that a keris with dhapur X will never be named Kyai X. Or is it considered OK?

I have seen a list of kraton pusaka and some of the pusakas are named Kyai Sangkelat (for example), does this means that the keris is dhapur sangkelat or could the keris be of a different dhapur than the name suggests?

Rasdan, I cannot give a definite, factual response to that question, all I know for certain is that amongst the people who were close friends & associates of PP, and amongst some older people whom I know well, there are a couple of things that should not be done:-

1) no open display of a personal keris to strangers

2) no display of personal belongings, wealth, or self ever; one should always appear to be less than what one really is; the idea behind this is, I think, that if a person is truly a force to be reckoned with, that will be obvious to all, no matter what the eyes might see of the person concerned.

None of this gets down to specifics or regulated instructions, it is all part of an overall pattern of behaviour.

Here is a little story, personal experience.

About 30 years ago I was invited to a wedding dinner. It was the marriage of an Indonesian relative to the son of an Indonesian gentleman who had made his wealth through timber concessions and had then diversified into manufacturing & tourist accommodation. The family was one of the wealthiest in Indonesia at that time.

As seems to be customary for a lot of Indonesians who have one foot in Indonesia & one foot in some other country, this couple did not have a single wedding, they had several, a couple in Indonesia in different locations, a couple in Australia, one in Sydney, one in Melbourne, I attended the Sydney one.

At the wedding dinner, the father, a gentleman of about 70, weighing no more than about 60kg & standing no more than about 5'2" tall, was wearing a badly fitting, crumpled, dusty, worn, blue pinstripe suit. His watch was a black plastic Casio. No personal jewellery, not even a wedding ring. His wife looked as if she had spent the entire day before the dinner in Sydney's most talented beautician's premises, she wore a simple black frock that I was later told she had ordered from her regular supplier in Paris. She wore only one piece of jewellery, a simple pendent:- the chain was gold and about as thick as my little finger, the pendent itself was a single diamond, about the size of a large pigeon egg.

Was the father of the bride a powerful man?

Well, by himself nobody would take the slightest notice of him, but in company with his wife anybody with half a brain would know to step very carefully indeed.

In Javanese society statements are never made directly, one needs to be able to understand that which is not spoken, that which is not obvious. One speaks by not speaking.

I believe it might be a little bit difficult to know what keris at one of these exhibitions were actually "pusaka" in the truest sense of the word. It seems to me that in the last decade or so this word has lost much of its original meaning. Keris that were once held as pusaka, but since released, are presented for sale as a "pusaka" keris. This confuses me because i do not understand how a keris that has been released from its kinship group can still be regarded as a pusaka keris. Many dealers these days present every antique keris they are selling as "pusaka". But how can i buy someone else pusaka keris and then say that i own a pusaka keris? If i am not part of the original kinship group how can this keris rightfully still be called pusaka once it joins my collection.
I have never understood the concept of presenting antique keris in a competitive format. New keris, yes, i can see that. Who and what are these competitions rewarding for "best" keris. A long dead empu? While i can certainly see contemporary smiths competing for best in show with their newly made blades, pitting old blades against each other makes little sense to me. It seems that the honour of winning first place in a contest of antique keris is really an award for one's financial status and ability to afford the very best in high end antique keris. Or perhaps it is an award for being clever enough to be in the right place at the right time to be able to obtain such keris. Either way, it is has nothing to do with any particular skill set possessed by the current custodian of the keris.
Considering the keris as an art form, i have always had difficulty judging one piece of art against another. Once you reach a certain level of quality art becomes rather subjective. And if we are indeed talking about people competing with their personal pusaka, keris that actually hold kinship lineage going back generations in one's family, i personally find the idea of judging one person's pusaka against another rather distasteful. But as you say, this is a personal preference.
But no, Nik, i don't believe prohibitions against showing your personal keris to strangers of in public places is in any way the general practice throughout all keris bearing cultures. Alan's preferences are formed based upon the practices of a relatively small group of people. Customs regarding keris have changed greatly as the keris has moved away from it's origin centers.
That said i believe that the vast majority of keris that we see presented in public spaces as "pusaka" are not really pusaka in the original sense of the word. But if one does indeed wish to present the symbol of their family lineage on display the entire world that is indeed their right.

David, regarding the word "pusaka".

It has several meanings, in Bahasa Indonesia it simple means "heirloom".

In Javanese it can mean an heirloom or revered object that has been passed down through a family, it can mean any sort of inheritance, it can mean a family ricefield, it can mean any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman.

In colloquial speech, people who are a part of keris culture will sometimes use the word "pusaka" to loosely refer to any weapon.

I personally think that the already colloquial use of this word has become even more loose as it is used by some dealers.

David;

The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world.

With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

I think that what you relate in post #25 is probably pretty true of Indonesia also Green, however, my experience of Indonesia is limited to Central Jawa, mainly Solo, East Jawa, mainly Malang, places south & east of Malang, Madura, and Bali.

I have spent very little time in major cities like Jakarta & Surabaya, in fact I have not been to Jakarta since 1978. Virtually all the contact I have with people in Jawa is with quite conservative Javanese people on the one hand, and very humble grass roots Javanese people on the other hand.

Most of what I know about keris, most of what I believe about keris I learnt in Solo in the period between 1966 and 2015. Most of that instruction came from men who began their journey with the keris prior to WWII. I think all these people have now passed, but I still have friends and acquaintances in Solo who are of senior generations, and from what I can understand, their values do not seem to vary much from the values of my past teachers.

I have set forth in post #22 my observations in respect of keris display.It seems to me that both the bulk of the people I used to know & who have already passed, and the bulk of people I still know and who are still in this world hold the opinion that keris display of virtually any kind is, in a word, crass, and not really the correct way for a Javanese gentleman to behave.

There is an immense variation between overall Indonesian standards & values as they are now, and the standards & values of conservative Central Javanese traditionalists.

Thank you for your reply Alan. I guess to the traditional Javanese the public space is not a place for flaunting their strength or knowledge, but they will add indicators of caution. It is not a place for pretenders. It is a rather different kind of worldview.

I think in essence, we can say that the keris as a pusaka, in traditional Javanese belief is an weapon/talisman/icon of authority that was passed down the generations.

The pusaka keris shows the strength, hierarchy and dreams of the owner and his forefathers. It also probably show the connection between the owner to the Javanese king.

Probably (this is just a guess) the traditional Javanese probably also believe that the amulet will only function if it is passed down as a heirloom (pusaka), not if it is purchased. A Javanese will not carry around his pusaka keris unless that keris was made as an amulet for the occasion that person is participating.

If a keris is purchased, a collection, the function of a keris as an talisman and as pusaka (obviously) no longer applies, thus it is not part of the no display restriction rule. This is clearly not an Islamic practice, but the traditional Javanese belief is a mix between Javanese culture and Islam. If a person does not share his keris collection that are not pusaka(s), the reason is probably he does not want to share the knowledge of the keris. Knowledge is money and money is power - this is also one of the reasons why the pusaka keris are not shared publicly.

That, in my opinion is the meaning of a pusaka keris in a traditional Javanese belief system and why it is treated in such secrecy. I hope fellow forumites can correct me if I am wrong.

I don't believe i ever claimed there were taboos or restrictions about selling keris pusaka nor do i have any problem with anyone wanting to sell their pusaka. That is their personal choice and right. Nor did i mention anything about "mumbo jumbo, spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever". So i am a bit confused by this response.

I have no problem whatsoever about generating interest in the keris. In fact i very much like to encourage that. But i still find the idea of competitive judging for old blades strange. If i win one of the categories in these competitions it seems to be little more than an indication of my wealth, status and connections that have allowed me to obtain such an award winning keris. With new keris at least the award gives credit and encouragement to living keris makers which i would think is a good thing. But most antique blades we can only guess at who the creator might have been.

Thanks Alan. Yes, i am well aware that pusaka is not a term reserved solely for keris.
I also understand that the word has found its way into Bahasa Indonesian, but my personal feeling is that how the word is defined in the original Javanese perspective is mush more pertinent when it is used to discuss keris.
As for colloquial usage, i find it confusing that it has become a word used to describe any weapon. As for its use by dealers, my feeling is that it is a word they choose to use only to elevate the perceived value of their stock.

Actually, the use to describe any weapon that the owner considers to be a personal talisman is listed in my big Javanese dictionary as normal usage, not colloquial.

But with the dealer usage, yeah, sure the intent is marketing.