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xasterix 12th June 2023 12:05 PM

Kris for comment
 
7 Attachment(s)
This kris sat on eBay for a long time (probably over a year). I risked buying it because I felt it was special.

After receiving it all the way from Greece, I realized the hilt was already compromised (it had a large, median crack and disintegrating hemp wrap). I decided to replace with a vintage Maguindanao hilt that I had, but still retained the original broken pommel (the crest was torn clean off).

I etched it afterwards, and was pleased with the results.

Another noteworthy thing about the kris is its scabbard plate pattern. It's non-Moro. Being familiar with some Luzon patterns, I compared it with acanthus leaf found on Spanish-era furniture. The pics I enclosed are from a 19th century comoda made either in Batangas or Laguna. I'm theorizing that a migrant Tagalog artisan in Moroland made the carving. It's also possible that the piece was captured, and the second owner decided to have it personalized in a Tagalog area.

The mixed heritage of some PH blades is really interesting, and helps flesh out the possible journey of a blade through bygone eras.

kai 12th June 2023 10:44 PM

Thanks, Ray, that is a very elegant blade as far as non-archaic pieces are concerned!

I'd guess this dates back to the mid-19th century. Also twistcore is rare with diamond cross-sections. Could you add dimensions, please?

Do you have pics of the original configuration even if damaged?

I'm afraid that I don't see much semblance of the crosspiece carving with the Filipino style shown; especially the mediterranean Acanthus motif seems to be missing. I'd rather posit that there seem to be Melayu ties: While most Malay motifs represent flowers with radial symmetry, a few may be shown in profile; also the vegetal/vine motif seems to be closer IMHO. For example, fairly similar flowers are shown in "Spirit of Wood" on pages 86-87 (top figure).

If not traditional Moro/Sulu ukkil, maybe more recent influence via Brunei?

Regards,
Kai

kai 12th June 2023 11:34 PM

Correction
 
Sorry, pp. 96-97: FL005.

xasterix 13th June 2023 02:17 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kai (Post 282696)
Thanks, Ray, that is a very elegant blade as far as non-archaic pieces are concerned!

I'd guess this dates back to the mid-19th century. Also twistcore is rare with diamond cross-sections. Could you add dimensions, please?

Do you have pics of the original configuration even if damaged?

I'm afraid that I don't see much semblance of the crosspiece carving with the Filipino style shown; especially the mediterranean Acanthus motif seems to be missing. I'd rather posit that there seem to be Melayu ties: While most Malay motifs represent flowers with radial symmetry, a few may be shown in profile; also the vegetal/vine motif seems to be closer IMHO. For example, fairly similar flowers are shown in "Spirit of Wood" on pages 86-87 (top figure).

If not traditional Moro/Sulu ukkil, maybe more recent influence via Brunei?

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai! Really grateful for your insights- I'm always happy to be proven wrong, especially since I need to learn more about patterns. I'm attaching a pic of the orig hilt config. I don't have a copy of the book you mentioned- but I'm trying to dig for one. I agree the Malay angle may be more logical as far as influence is concerned. As for measurement, it's 21in blade, 5.5in hilt (the replacement hilt grip has the exact measurement as the orig- I'd like to think that was fate at play!).

Ian 13th June 2023 03:37 AM

Very nice sword Xas, and even better resto work. Congratulations.

xasterix 13th June 2023 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 282703)
Very nice sword Xas, and even better resto work. Congratulations.

Thanks very much Ian :D

Gavin Nugent 13th June 2023 11:05 AM

Nice buying xasterix, and sweet blade.

Carved Sampir are not all that common... I've referenced what examples I have on file and whilst most are loosely ths profile shape, none carry the same or similar motifs.

xasterix 13th June 2023 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent (Post 282709)
Nice buying xasterix, and sweet blade.

Carved Sampir are not all that common... I've referenced what examples I have on file and whilst most are loosely ths profile shape, none carry the same or similar motifs.

Thanks Gavin! The carving motif is indeed interesting, hoping to get to the bottom of it :D

Sajen 13th June 2023 09:42 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Very nice and interesting kris! Congrats Xas. :)

Here a picture from the pages Kai mentioned before.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian 14th June 2023 08:05 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Xas,

On looking more closely at your pictures of the Luzon furniture and the kris scabbard, I think the plants are actually different. I've blown up both pics.

On the scabbard you can see distinct flowers, with the central ovule and three surrounding petals. There may be two different flowers represented on the scabbard if you compare the most central one with the others (pointed versus rounded leaves).

On the furniture, the three-lobed structures have no central ovule and are probably not flowers. They are multi-layered and could be seed pods or perhaps leaf buds, but not flowers. Lovely carving BTW.

I think you are looking at different botanical species in each picture.

Ian.
.

xasterix 14th June 2023 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen (Post 282718)
Very nice and interesting kris! Congrats Xas. :)

Here a picture from the pages Kai mentioned before.

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks very much for this Detlef! Super helpful!

xasterix 14th June 2023 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 282725)
Xas,

On looking more closely at your pictures of the Luzon furniture and the kris scabbard, I think the plants are actually different. I've blown up both pics.

On the scabbard you can see distinct flowers, with the central ovule and three surrounding petals. There may be two different flowers represented on the scabbard if you compare the most central one with the others (pointed versus rounded leaves).

On the furniture, the three-lobed structures have no central ovule and are probably not flowers. They are multi-layered and could be seed pods or perhaps leaf buds, but not flowers. Lovely carving BTW.

I think you are looking at different botanical species in each picture.

Ian.
.

Thanks for pointing that out Ian, those are clear differences indeed. I need a botanist to crunch these depictions :D

kino 15th June 2023 03:28 PM

What an amazing find. Your intuition led you to it. I’ve glanced at that Kris several times but never thought what lay below the blades patina. Congrats.

xasterix 16th June 2023 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino (Post 282743)
What an amazing find. Your intuition led you to it. I’ve glanced at that Kris several times but never thought what lay below the blades patina. Congrats.

Thanks very much sir! :D

Gavin Nugent 19th June 2023 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xasterix (Post 282714)
Thanks Gavin! The carving motif is indeed interesting, hoping to get to the bottom of it :D

I look at this and immediately think Sulu by the sheath profile overall... but I look at the carvings, and without any notable reference to compare to by design specifically, there is something in the manner of the carving that seems Samal to me... does anyone have good timber carving references for the Southern Sulu regions?

On the off chance that the Met holds a kris with carvings to the sheath, this might be worth a follow up.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...nce&pageSize=0

xasterix 19th June 2023 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent (Post 282822)
I look at this and immediately think Sulu by the sheath profile overall... but I look at the carvings, and without any notable reference to compare to by design specifically, there is something in the manner of the carving that seems Samal to me... does anyone have good timber carving references for the Southern Sulu regions?

On the off chance that the Met holds a kris with carvings to the sheath, this might be worth a follow up.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...nce&pageSize=0

Halloo Gavin, I've been told by an elder that the carved pattern on the scabbard is non-Moro. It doesn't fall under 'ukkil' or 'okir' either, which the Sama use. Thanks and great find on the Met item- I'll try to contact them, fingers crossed!

kino 23rd June 2023 05:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent (Post 282822)
... does anyone have good timber carving references for the Southern Sulu regions?

Gavin, Have you seen this publication?

Battara 27th June 2023 02:15 AM

Xasterix, I will admit that I've seen this type of ukkil before, but I have not been able to attribute it to any Moro group yet. It is unusual though.:confused:

xasterix 27th June 2023 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara (Post 282989)
Xasterix, I will admit that I've seen this type of ukkil before, but I have not been able to attribute it to any Moro group yet. It is unusual though.:confused:

Your comment tugged at my memory...there was indeed a similarly-themed scabbard in the forum before. Finally located it:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+sabre

Interesting that the shape of the scabbard is the same, and the carving motif very similar.

Battara 29th June 2023 02:58 AM

Yes that scabbard shape like this one seems indicative of Sulu work, and the ukkil of the other scabbard also seems Sulu.

Yours - a Sulu variant? Different tribe in the region?

xasterix 29th June 2023 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara (Post 283002)
Yes that scabbard shape like this one seems indicative of Sulu work, and the ukkil of the other scabbard also seems Sulu.

Yours - a Sulu variant? Different tribe in the region?

I've been told by Sulu and Mindanao elders that the pattern is not ukkil nor okir. Non-Moro, simply put. It doesn't follow the conventions of Moro patterns.

Battara 1st July 2023 02:27 AM

I agree - not traditional Moro okir/ukkil

Gavin Nugent 2nd July 2023 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino (Post 282917)
Gavin, Have you seen this publication?

I have not Kino. Is there good wood carving data within?


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