My First Kuba Sword......comments please
 

Hi, just purchased this Kuba Ikul ( Ikulbapyaang),

Measuring 15” (38cm)in length and 4 ½” (11cms)across the widest part of the blade, described as late 19th Century Kuba War Knife. The blade is also described as slightly pitted with the odd dent on the blade edge. It has a hardwood decorated handle and comes in a hide pouch measuring 10” x 8”, and is decorated with Cowrie shells and miniature carved masks.

According to my research...cowrie shells were used as money (by various tribes including the Kuba). There are three small carved 'masks' which seem similar (in style) to other full sized ceremonial/religious masks. The picture is not clear enough to decide whether each 'mask' is different. If they are .....it could be because......


Three royal mask types exist: the tailored Mwaash aMbooy, representing Woot and the king; the wooden face
mask, Ngady Mwaash aMbooy, the incestuous sister-wife of Woot; and the wooden helmet mask, Bwoom ,the
commoner. These characters appear in a variety of contexts including public ceremonies, rites involving the king,
and initiations. Although their dances are generally solo, together the three royal masks reenact Kuba myths of
origin (Cornet 1982:254,256; Roy 1979:170).

An extract from..
http://www.randafricanart.com/kuba_Ngady_aMwaash.html

Have I got myself a good piece........comments please gentlemen...thankyou

First this is not a war sword the Kuba have a different longer and heavier sword that they use for war. This short sword of yours is known as ikul. Here is a link to the war sword of the Kuba. Your dagger is a typical example the nice thing is it comes with a scabbard.

Congrats

http://www.mambele.be/knife_detail.p...=0037&rowno=21

CONGRADULATIONS!! :D I CAN'T TELL MUCH ABOUT THE HANDLE ON YOUR EXAMPLE BUT THE MOST INTERESTING THING IS THAT IT HAS A SCABBARD. I HAVE 5 EXAMPLES OF THIS KNIFE ALL DIFFERENT AND NONE OF THEM HAS A SCABBARD. IN FACT I AM NOT SURE IF I HAD EVER SEEN ONE WITH A SCABBARD BEFORE AND I HAVE SEEN MANY EXAMPLES OVER THE YEARS.MANY OF THESE HAVE SMALL PICES OF PEWTER DRIVEN INTO THE HANDLES FORMING VARIOUS DESIGNS THEY ARE ALSO OFTEN SEEN IN THE BENNIN BRONZES IN THE HANDS OF WARRIORS.

Well done. I to have never seen one with a scabbard, or even in an old photograph. Lucky lucky :cool:

Thankyou all.....I actually, was NOT going to bid on this piece because it HAD a SCABBARD......I have never seen a scabbard with this type of sword and assumed the 'marriage' was made to make the item more saleable.
However, the cowrie shells and the stylised 'masks' suggested 'Kuba' so I took the risk........glad I did :D
These are the only pics I have, when it arrives I will post better ones..

kuba
 

Hi,
I don't want to be the one with the bad news all the time but I feel I have to react here.....
The "ikula"knives don't have a scabbard!!
This scabbard is from a tourist Lega knife!!
I saw this one on ebay to but it's not so good quality for a ikula.
There're thousands of those knives,they're the most common Kuba knives.
Sorry but very often I read here on the forum:great,super,congratz,etc.....for things of very low quality or even fake!! Most of the time I don't react to keep the dream alive but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do on the long run.... :(

Thanks for your input Mapico, the seller states that the 'scabbard' has age, I'll wait and see if this is the case. As I mentioned before..I was not certain about the scabbard.
But, if you are correct, why do these swords not have some form of scabbard? That seems strange....after all who wants to walk around branishing your sword all the time.....it would be inconvenient. Plus the fact a scabbard offers protection to the sword when not in use. :confused:

Hi Danny, It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it ;)

I appreciate these comment highly, it is not pleasant for the owner but usefull for the others, personal I prefer to know if I have a bad, cheap or touristic example of some item rather than to dream of things I don't have but don't know YET!!
Guy

kuba
 

Hi,
almost all the Kuba knives are to show the rank of the owner.
There're about 20 different shapes,starting with the one you bought,then the same in red copper,then one with a 1,5 cm flat tip,then ikula with pewter and brass inlay in the handle,etc...........the long sword "ilondo"is used for fighting and has a raffia scabbard with belt to wear.
The knives,when not in use are kept in the wall of their homes,which are made of raffia strips......
The old knives are mostly sharp,the later ones not.
Also the later ones are sometimes cut out of a plate and not forged.
Yours is forged!!no worries.

Danny, all opinions are welcomed; the way we all learn is from the expertise of others . Please have no qualms about identifying pieces that are not old or have been made to deceive the innocent .

I believe sometime back we had a discussion on just what is 'fake' as it can be a loaded word in discussion .

Again, please share your expertise with us all; no good that will come from keeping silent on such issues; just be gentle with us . ;) :D

YOU HAVE SOLVED ONE OF MY MYSTERIES :D I ALWAYS WONDERED WHERE ALL THE SCABBARDS WERE ON THIS TYPE KNIFE. THE PICTURE SHOWING THE KNIVES STORED ON THE HUT WALL AND YOUR EXPLANATION OF THE KNIVES MAIN PURPOSE CLEAR UP SEVERAL QUESTIONS. WERE THESE DAGGERS EVER CARRIED TO WAR AS A BACKUP WEAPON OR LEFT AT HOME ON SUCH OCCASIONS AND THE LARGER SWORDS AND SPEARS CARRIED? I ASSUME THE 20 DIFFERENT FORMS ALL HAVE A SPECIAL MEANING OR PURPOSE?

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND WEAPONS WITH MIS MATCHED SCABBARDS AND I ALWAYS WONDER WHEN AND HOW IT OCCURED. I RECENTLY SAW TWO FRENCH SWORDS IN ETHIOPIAN SCABARDS AND HAVE A FEW ITEMS IN MY COLLECTION I WONDER ABOUT.
YOU GOT A COMPLETE DAGGER AND AN EXTRA SCABBARD TO BOOT NOW YOU NEED TO FIND THE PROPER DAGGER FOR THE SCABBARD :) IT NEVER SEEMS TO END AS FAR AS COLLECTING ,BUT WHO WANTS IT TO :D

As Rick and others have pointed out...it is important there are conflicting views.
Dis-information breeds more dis-information and benefits no-one.

I am hoping that the 'pouch' is of some age, that although it is not the scabbard ...that it is a tribal artefact..... and not a 'tourist sheath' or handbag :rolleyes:

My 'gut instinct' was right.... but there was that element of doubt (that I could be wrong) so I bid. As a collector we must occasionally take risks.. otherwise you could miss out on something incredibly rare.......Ah...the 'ups and downs' of collecting........nurse pass me my vallium ;)

It arrived today.......got a little excited......the handle is heavily encrusted in grime.......looked all wood with faint intricate carving.....gently scraped the carved areas ....to reveil.....silvery metal. The 'wear' patina suggests age....so the 19c stated by the seller IS a possibility.
As to the pouch, it is made from old thick leather which is age hardened, is well constructed and also suggests age, say mid 20c. The pouch has 'age' harden around the knife's blade shape....which further suggests that this married couple have been together for some time. I am not saying that this is a sheath for the sword.....but IMHO this has been used to store it for sometime.

The metal 'inlays' are quite fine and still have alot of grime in them...what can I use (solvent ?) to thoughly remove the dirt without ruining the overall patina? The pommel is overlaid with a metal 'cap' which is 'patterned' but covered in a dark brown/black layer ....should this be cleaned off? Pictures will not show (very well) the metal work, so I want to clean it further before posting new pics.

The blade is fairly sharp, and although it has not been sharpened ...for a very long time...I could cut my finger if I run it along the blade (cuts paper fairly cleanly) ...the blade has a formed edge.

I am also right in suggesting that this is a higher status example of a ikula.......

Searched the Anthropology collections website, found this image .....acquired in 1907. The hilt is very similar to mine....

Poor pictures, as not fully clean, but they give you an idea....

Hi Katana, for sure the ikula is a good one, no tourist piece, and even if these knives are quite common, anyway they are very elegant and worth to be collected. Here are two of mine for comparison. About the scabbard, well as others have already said, it's modern :(

Regards
Flavio

Here, instead, is a kuba war sword, the ilwoon. The handle shows some strange decorations that, in a first moment, have made me think that the handle was recent, but the very deep patination maybe tells the contrary.

I think these are a little like Dha some are more common than others.

And here there is another one with also the ferrule, but this one is no more mine :(

Hi Flavio, thanks for the info. :) :cool: ....what is the best way to clean the metal pattern areas of the hilt....to make them show more clearly....

If you want to hold it...
 

hello katana, if you want to be a real Kuba warriors...
You can see the knife & the scabbard, which have sometimes a "strange" look, with carved heads looking like tourists pieces, but in fact it seems that no.
Luc

copper Ikulbapyaang
 

a copper one of my collection
Luc

Hi Luc, how are you? :) I have already seen this pictures and for sure are quite recent (maybe 70s or 80s?), and it's also strange the fact that these warriors show the ikula (that is a typic kuba knife) and the long sword in the scabbard with faces that in all the books is attributed to Luba (and no Ilwoon at all!!) :confused:
Maybe i'm completely wrong but this to me seems a "organized festivity" to permit a WHITE REPORTAGE!! What do you think?

Flavio

Fine Flavio :D
I was thinking like you...but I' found this pic from 1953 showing a KUBA dancer with a sword in a scabbard attributed generally to the LUBA !
Well it's not simple...The western Luba (kasayi) rae not far from the Kuba region, and in the kuba territory you have people with the name of Luba (according with Felix : see the map).
We have to find and old colonial man, who live in this place to know...before he dies...
Luc

another pic from 1956
 

1956 with a typical Kuba knife, pic from the same origin, same photograph.
Luc

1929/1932 pics : see the man at the second plan , and the man between the two women :rolleyes: has an ikul in his right hand .
Luc

Hi Luc, beautiful pictures, thank you!! For sure some swords were traded and we can see from old pictures a man of one tribe shows a sword of other groups, this is normal. Anyway you are agree that the scabbards that show heads are recent? No one could show old pictures of scabbard decorated with this heads?

Yes I think like you.
Luc

Kuba carnaval
 

Hi,
I agree with Flavio the colored pic's are a mix of all Kuba and other tribe arms,headdresses and etno....festival
The 1956 pic is from the Pyaang....
The pic with scabbard is not Luba but Kete,they have the same handle but I'm sure the blade ends on 3 points not one
I added some Kuba knives to show what I mean... ;)

Hi Flavio, Mapico and Luc,
great pics and information......welcome additions to the thread..... And very nice examples of Kuba knives ....I'm not jealous :p ;)