Ideas?
 

Here is some material for good guesses.

A keris hilt that is outside the established patterns.

Anybody care to comment?

It looks like a praying man, reciting a "do'a" (special prayer). My 2 cents opinion. ;)

Is the hole in the bottom round? It seems a hilt of mine with an old woman with arms in the same position (but i am not shure for keris)

What do you think about this hilt ?
 

An other kris hilt outside of the traditional pattern !
Is that lady praying ? Is it a Christian nun ?
She wears a veil as long as herself but has her face uncovered.
Strange mixture of concepts, but the hilt is fairly well carved.
I have already shown this hilt in the forum but nobody could find where from it came and what it was supposed to represent. I found it in Jogjakarta in 1999 with other untraditional hilts as a swan.
The hole for the peksi is perfectly round and obviously modern (20th century)
I would appreciate your comments
Michel

To A. G. Maisey,
Is the figure praying or is he holding something in his hands? Strange, he has no belly button.
Sincerely,
RobT

Rob, I don't know what he's doing.

He might be praying. He might just be in a pensive pose. He's certainly not holding anything.

The major characteristic of this hilt is that it is craft work, it is not the product of a skilled carver, but something that an unskilled person has made to what I would call "village standard". It is definitely a keris hilt, not a pelecok handle.

What is the band around his head?

I'm not playing games here. I don't know what I'm looking at except that it is a keris hilt. From where, by whom, for what reason, I know not.

I acquired it in Jawa, but that does not necessarily mean it originated there, although that is probable.

As I said:- material for guesses--- but good ones.

Appologies
 

I am sorry and I apologize for my impolite behavior.
I came in this thread like an elephant placing my hilt without explaining why I thought it was an information in complement to Alan hilt.
I did this very fast and without explaining my thoughts and when I read the complete thread today, I was shocked by my behavior. So sorry,excuse me.

The lady hilt seems to me as having a position very close to Alan's hilt. The hands position are not exactly similar but close enough. The face is not a demon face, in both cases, but is a real face, which is not often the case on kris hilts.
The lady hold a purse or something similar whereas the little lad on Alan's hilt do not hold anything but..
All in all both hilts have similarities.
I recognize it does not bring much answers to the question of Alan.
So I was probably wrong in bringing it into the discussion.
Sorry, regards
Michel

Alan I disagree with you ideas on village work. "Village work" is another one of those rather hackneyed collector terms. Look at how sensitively carved the gesture to the head is on that hilt. I will dare to suggest that primitive is not lacking in artistic expression or ability. When one comperes this example to many over done jewel encrusted gaudy examples perhaps you might see it in another light. Just compere the simple pleasing carving to the second example. I might suggest that the first example is an immediate personal response in a cultural frame work, where as the second example has been carved to please a third party. I confess to knowing nothing about this type of thing.

Tim, you are of course free to disagree with anything that I, or anybody else may write, and I agree, my use of the terminology "village work" is a simplification.However, let us establish one thing:- I have not stated my ideas on village work, so it is not my ideas with which you disagree, but my terminology.

I simplified because I did wish to write extensively on the differences between the work of a professional tukang jejeran , and work done by a person for his own gratification.

The hilt of which I posted images is most definitely not the work of a professional carver. It is something that has been carved by an individual for his personal use. This individual would have been outside the influence of a kraton, and would very probably have lived in a rural situation.There is no doubt that this hilt shows considerable charm, and great sensitivity on the part of the carver, but it is not the work of a skilled person.This is what makes it unique, and why it should be carefully studied and thought upon, by any serious student of the keris.In my opinion, more can be learnt from this type of hilt, of the true meaning of the keris to people at the grassroots of the culture, than can be learnt from the over refined stylization to be found in kraton controlled examples.

To my way of thinking, this hilt is worthy of the closest attention. Far more so than the bulk of the ivory hilts that I posted to a different thread.

Michel, you are a remarkably well mannered man, however, I personally do not consider your apology is at all necessary. There is some similarity between your hilt and the one I posted , but I do not think your hilt is folk work---I'll use "folk work" in deference to Tim's objection to my previous term "village work".

The execution of your hilt shows a degree of professionalism, and an understanding of traditional motifs. To me, it looks like something that was done in Madura, early in the current era. I have seen a great many hilts of similar quality that show totally uninterpretable representations of something or other. It is almost as if the carvers say to themselves---"well, I'm sick and tired of doing such and such, let's see what I can come up with today." They carve for commercial purposes, and they know the value of a unique representation.

Hello Alan,

Thanks for posting this puzzling piece! Any pic of its base with the hole?

How long is the hilt?

Regards,
Kai

I could do a pic of the base and hole, Kai, but it won't tell you anything---its just a normal round base with a round hole. You'll learn absolutely nothing from the base.

Length is near enough to 10cm.

Fom Holstein book (1931) another keris hilt with a similar posture

The hilts in question
 

Good morning forumites, just a theory, and my 2 cents worth, could these first 2 hilts pictured in the discussions have something to do with representing mourning rather than prayer? Saying that, there is obviously prayer within mourning in our societies, but these hilts look to me like there is some degree of sadness within the figures.

regards

Gavin

I like both these handles; I do see quite a difference between them; Alan's example could be a meditative or prayerful attitude .
Michel's reflects (to me) the gesture of (can't remember the term for it; anyone??) formal greeting where the body is slightly bent forward from the waist with the hands crossed over the heart .

I find the dress of the figure represented on Alan's handle to be quite intriguing; I wonder where it originated .

Perhaps?
 

While watching TV, I came across this. Perhaps especially when thinking of the material {marine ivory?} you have something a little more special than a Keris handle. From the NY Met. Certainly the product of a specialist?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../keris001b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../keris001a.jpg

To me the posture looks the same as seen on many keris Sajen, a figure bent forward with hands crossed over the heart or navel.

Exploring the staff or lime stick finial idea from the Melanesian and possibly Micronesian world. I can find at least half a dozen or so pictures of lime sticks and art works that reflect this pose. All carved in wood none as fine and as prestigious as the ivory item in question. Ivory bird heads. However this is drifting off discussing of weapons. I just have a gut feeling that Alan has something very nice indeed.

I remember reading a description of one of the early or first accounts of keris in Indonesia. The observer said that the men had straight bladed daggers with bone/ivory handles carved in the form of a human figure…..dose anyone remember reading this, is probably in the archives of this forum somewhere.

Could this be one?

I am almost certain that this is something rather special from Melanesian Islands. Just google Melanesian ritual headbands to see I am not making it up. This picture is of one from Vanuatu. You say you got it in Jawa, the Indonesians do occupy a portion of the aforementioned. The evidence may be circumspection in a court of law but that does not mean it is not what happened. :shrug: :cool: :eek:

This is interesting speculation, Tim, but you are working from a photographic image, I am working from the actual object in my hand, and a knowledge base that can call upon thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of keris hilts, handles of pelecoks, handles of other various small Indonesian implements and related artifacts.

I also have some limited experience in Melanesian and Pacific art.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this carving is a keris hilt. I think it is most probably from Jawa, but I would not rule out Madura and Sumatra, or one of the small islands off the north coast of Jawa.

The features that puzzle me are the headband, which is something I cannot place, and the representation at the lower end, which could be a sarung, or some other item of clothing, or simply artistic convention to close the figure.

It is a piece by a non-professional carver, probably something that somebody has made for himself.

I was rather hoping that somebody may have been able to identify the headband as an item that could be associated with a particular era, religious group, cultural group, or location.

The nose is distinctly "roman" in profile, which seems to me that it might have an Arabic input, and by association, an Islamic inference.

Possibly we have a grass-roots interpretation of one of the Wali Songo?

The reason I posted the pic was to generate discussion, so your idea that it could be Melanesian is well and truly within the bounds of my original objective, but you can rest assured that it is most definitely not Melanesian.

I know what it is:- it is a keris hilt; I know the approximate area of its origin, and I have given this above; what I do not know---and probably can never know with any certainty--- is what it might represent.

Alan you clearly have a nose for evaluating art forms. :cool:

Speculation
 

Hullo everybody,

Maybe one may consider:

- headband made of rolled cloth and tied at the back is very common in Nusantara (some cloth may give striation/stripey effect)

- actual coloured stripes headbands are more common among sailors

- scrimshaw is common among sailors

- carver may have exercised artistic license in excluding tie-knot

Best. :)

Probably not, Tim. I cannot claim to have any expertise in the evaluation of art, or its forms, in a general sense, however, in the area of keris and keris hilts, I have spent a very long time handling them and have handled and seen a great many. I have a very large collection of keris hilts, and do have a particular interest in this form.

Your suggestions are well taken Pak Amuk, yes, the headband is not uncommon, but I fail to understand the scrimshaw reference. I do not think that seafarers from maritime SE Asia engaged in scrimshaw, and even if they did, this handle is not an example of the craft of scrimshaw.

Hullo everybody,

Alan, I am sorry for using the term 'scrimshaw' very loosely. I use scrimshaw/whittling to mean carving, scratching, shaping etc. any material.
Sometimes it is not convenient to repair or replace something by going to an expert; one has to rely on what skill is available, especially if one is on a boat, for instance. People in isolation, like sailors at sea, tend to develop muti-skills.

Best.

I take your point Pak Amuk.

Yes, a possibility.

MOST ALL OF US HAVE THE ABILITY TO CARVE AND DEPICT THE THINGS WE SEE. BUT WITHOUT PRACTICE OR TRAINING WE ARE VERY LIMITED IN HOW WELL WE CAN PORTRAY THE THE THINGS WE SEE SO OTHERS CAN SEE CORRECTLY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN. THIS CARVER HAS SKILL BUT DOES NOT KNOW THE TECKNIQUE TO SUCESSFULLY PORTRAY FOLDED CLOTH, HAIR OR OTHER MORE COMPLICATED DETAIL.
HE HAS DONE A GOOD JOB AND HAS NOT TRYED TO GO ABOVE HIS ABILITY TO CARVE WHICH ALWAYS LEADS TO DISSASATISFACTION WITH ONES WORK AND OFTEN KEEPS THE WORK FROM BEING FINISHED. HE HAS MADE A HEAD COVERING AND CLOTHES VERY SIMPLY JUST SHOWING THEY ARE THERE WITH NO DETAIL ,STYLE ECT. AS THAT WAS BEYOND HIS ABILITY AS A CARVER. HE HAS KEPT ALL OTHER FEATURES RELATIVELY SIMPLE BUT HAS BALANCED HIS FIGURE WELL AND PORTRAYED THE POSITION OF PRAYER OR RESPECTFUL GREETING ALSO. HE COMES FROM A SOCIETY THAT HAS KERIS OR HAS BEEN EXPOSED TO GROUPS WHO DO AND HAS SEEN SOME AND KNOWS THE BOWING POSTURE FROM HAVING SEEN AND BEEN TOLD ITS MEANING. THIS DOSEN'T NARROW THINGS DOWN MUCH AS KERIS CULTURE HAS TRAVELED WIDELY THRU-OUT POLYNESIA AND OCEANIC SOCIETYS, HEAD BANDS ARE ALSO WORN THRU-OUT THOSE SOCIETYS. PEOPLE HAVE ALSO MOVED FROM THOSE ISLANDS TO JAVA AND OTHER MORE MODERN AREAS. ALANS ITEM STRIKES ME AS REPRESENTING A YOUNG MAN WITH RESPECT AND HONOR, A LOT OF FEELING AND PERSONAL EXPRESSION HAS GONE INTO ITS CREATION, I FEEL IT IS THE WORK OF A YOUNG MAN.

THE SECOND HANDLE APPEARS TO REPRESENT AN OLD PRIEST OR WISE MAN AND HAS BEEN CARVED BY A SKILLED CARVER PROBABLY A OLDER PERSON. WHO IT WAS CARVED FOR OR WHY? NO WAY TO KNOW IS THERE ANY PROFESSION OR ORDER WHO WEARS A LONG COWL OVER THE HEAD TO THE GROUND IN BACK?
I HAVE ADDED A SAILOR OR PIRATE PICTURE FOR COLOR. :D