Baskethilt
 

I had promised Jim and Tom that I would post photo's of this recent purchase on a previous thread. This appears to be a Stirling hilt on a German blade, I have my own theory's on it date but, I would very much like to hear what every one else thinks. I will post photo's of any details requested. All comments good and bad are very welcome.

Jeff

I dont see why you think this is German blade. This fine inscription was used mostly in spanish blades (but not only).

NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON / NO ME ENBAINES SIN HONOR [Do not draw me without reason/Do not sheath me without honor]). What wise and heroic words! I think it is the best of the mottos we find in swords.

It looks very old to me! But I will wait our friends who know better for the age estimation. Good catch Jeff!

GREEN WITH ENVY
 

Beautiful piece, indeed! I've always wanted one, but still can't afford it! It is the classic Spanish broadsword with the 6-sided blade and typical marking. These blades were imported and seen on many weapons for the period, just as many German blades marked "Solingen" were seen on basket-hilts. I've also seen Spanish broadsword blades on colonial American and some early English swords.

Hi Jeff,
This really is a beauty!!! and it is probably mid 18th century, a good example of the Highland baskethilt. While I'm away from my resources at the moment I wanted to comment although I know we've discussed this on another thread.
It seems that German blades prevailed on most Scottish baskethilts, and it sometime early in the 17th century the very marketing savvy German blademakers began to use established Spanish marks and names on thier products. Spanish blades had gained favorable reputation for thier quality and the German smiths simply insured marketability with these markings.

The inscription on this blade is indeed referred to as 'the Spanish motto' (Aylward, 1945) although I believe it is actually in Latin, linguists please correct me if that is not the case. Some years ago in research on Spanish colonial weapons I discovered that this motto or phrase appears to have developed sometime in the early 18th century, presumably on Spanish blades. The same wording occurred later on some French swords in French of course and if I am not mistaken, it occurs only on several Italian blades, but it is without doubt a Spanish affectation.

The hilt is of 18th century form as well, and the pommel suggests mid 18th century. The beveled blade cross section and the 'motto' suggest the blade is 18th century Solingen product, with similar combinations occurring on the familiar latter 18th century Spanish dragoon or military broadsword blades.

It would be interesting to discuss this 'motto' more and find out how many trade blades might have carried it. Could anyone out there present other examples found hilted in other hilt forms, cultural spheres? It seems these trade blades often went other directions i.e. India, Africa....anyone seen a firangi or kaskara with this motto?

Best regards,
Jim

Hi Yannis,

You are correct this could be a Spanish blade as the Scots are known to revere them. The German makers were well aware of this and often "borrowed" the Spanish marks. In addition to the German and Spanish blades, French blades can be found on Scottish baskethilts. I think this is a German blade by its style as well as a detail which I have left out of the photo's. I will post it later as well as why I left it out once everyone has been able to comment.

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your comments. I think the main reason these tend to be expensive is not the usual market forces, but, the superior haggling skills of the Scots ;) . I went 30% over my absolute maximum on this one. My 1/4 Scotch ancestry was no match for a thoroughbred.

Hi Jim,

I think you are right on with your dating of both the hilt and the blade. As I explained to Yannis I left out a detail which I think confirms this. It should also help confirm a theory I have. I will also start looking to see the sphere of these blades with this motto.

Thanks for all the comments so far.
Jeff

Ok, does this change things?

Jeff

I'm probably the most ignorant of all of you, but it looks like Solingen's sun and moon motiff to me.

Hi Rivkin,

I totally agree that it is the star and moon motif typical of Solingen. I have always thought that they were used between 1780-1830.
However what do you think of this? The description is; "Small-sword, French, c. 1750 (top), from the collection of the Duke of Northumberland; and closed-hilt broadsword, English, c. 1590 (bottom)."
Similar blade similar star and moon?

Jeff

The inscription on this blade is indeed referred to as 'the Spanish motto' (Aylward, 1945) although I believe it is actually in Latin, linguists please correct me if that is not the case.
I´m not a linguist but there is not doubt about the language of the motto, Spanish.

Very interesting sword and motto, in "The Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima" Grand Master Leo Giron used this motto to guide the lector in situations were: "If trouble find you, and there are no other means of settling it, then be guided by the words inscribed on the sword of the famous knights of yesteryear".

Enrique.

I'm not troubled by this - if french blade is made by Manufacture d'Armes Blanches d' Alsace (Klingenthal), then it's easy to explain - all ranking masters who worked at Klingenthal were initially from Solingen.

As far as I remember english attempt to revive the native sword productio also included inviting a few solingen families.

The moon and sun figures are characteristic cabalistic markings used on Solingen blades from the first half of 18th century onward and may have even been used in variation earlier. The very large block letters are also found in a number of Solingen applications imitating Spanish markings, including 'Toledo' and 'Sahagun' for some of the most common.

The Solingen blade cutlers during the 17th century did expand into not only England (Shotley Bridge and Hounslow) but by the 18th century into many other European cities to set up small businesses. Another key location was Vira, near Stockholm, in the 17th century.

Enrique, thank you for confirming the motto is indeed in Spanish, as it should be :) One must admit, it is a grand and perfectly worded motto.

Best regards,
Jim

Thanks engar.

Hi Rivkin, it is not the English atribute that bothers me it is the date. The blade is undoubtedly German and the hilt is English. 1590 seems way to early. But who am I to contradict Oakeshott!

Hi Jim, As we have discussed this before, these moon, sun etc. motifs seem to occur in a fairly narrow time period starting in the later 18th century. I am still looking for a datable sword with this motif that is earlier than 1750. I suspect Oakeshott dated this by attributing the markings to Peter Munich. I don't know if he is correct. This is also why I left out the symbols on my original posting as my sword is quite datable by the other features as you expertly displayed. Thanks!

Does anyone have photo's of a pre 1750 sword with these symbols, or any photo's of known Peter Munich swords?

Thanks All.
Jeff

Sun and moon symbols
 

Is there any possiblilty that these symbols, much like the "Andrea ferrera" markings were used for centuries afterward. I have a Dutch hanger dated to around 1740 that has the sun symbol exactly like the one on the early baskethilt on the cover of Oakeshott's book. I think the Spanish-mottoed one pictured here looks like the typical 18th century piece(6-sided). That being said, I was once told by a collector of antique Scottish pieces and armorer himself, that one has to realise that many Scottish basketswords were similar to Japanese katana, in that they were frequently rebuilt, updated, refitted,etc. This is why we sometimes see a M1798 basket refitted with a Victorian era chromed blade, etc. In any case, this is a beautiful piece!!

Unfortunatelly it probably won't help you much, but there is one of Munich's swords from C. Blair, European and American Arms, no. 145 with description:

"Pillow-Sword" of Federick III of Denmark and Norway (1648-1670) (...). Blade signed "Peter Munich me fecit Solinge". Danish, c. 1650, Rosenborg, Copenhagen.

Thanks Mark and Wolviex,

I think the continued use of the sun moon symbols is what we all have been accepting. But unlike Andrea Ferrera, I can't find examples that are definitely pre 1750. For instance we know of Ferrera, running wolf, orb and cross, as well as Sun moon signs are popular on Scottish swords. Yet a datable collection such as the blades from the battle of Culloden has examples of all except the sun and moon. I am sure there are some examples of the pre 1750 sun and moons out there but I am convinced the vast majority date to the later 18th century with a few mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich. I would love to see a photo of your Dutch hanger!

All the Best
Jeff

I'd love to post,Jeff, but I don't have a digital camera, nor am I very computer-savvy. To top things off, I'm expremely busy and my computer is acting up- time to take it back in to the shop. I'm going out of town for a week, but when I get back, perhaps I'll try and get help posting a pic.

Hi Jeff,
I have been hoping that someone out there might find a reference or example of pre-1750 provenance blade with these facially enhanced crescent moon and sun. Meanwhile I have been looking more into the use of these images on blades, which are clearly associated with the allegorically and talismanically symbolized figures that became popular through cabbalistic and occult literature. Without going into the complexities of such esoterica, it seems very apparant that the style of these inscribed images are very similar to the 18th century artwork seen on tarot cards and similar occult material.

As discussed, the blade on your sword seems clearly of mid to third quarter eighteenth century as well as clearly a Solingen product, the hilt being Scottish and also of that period. In reviewing material on blades with such 'cabbalistic' or occult images it does seem that they typically do occur primarily on c.1750 blades, especially on 'hunting' swords. In previous discussions discussing these markings on blades we have noted references to many such swords intended for use by the gentry as for hunt as well as 'riding' swords for protection while travelling. In "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.42), it is noted that magical signs often appeared on hunting swords produced in Germany and the etching of hunting scenes often accompanied such motif. Curiously, the author notes that "...in the second half of the eighteenth century, decoration on the blades was confined to a band of interlaced strapwork with some sprays of foliage or martial trophies".

This seems to suggest that use of such magical motif actually declined, rather than acceded after 1750, at least on hunting weapons. This would imply that popularity of such 'magical' motif had waned by then at least in hunting swords intended for German use.....however it seems established that cessation of such trends would not necessarily impact the trade blade sector (consider the Solingen blades thus marked found on 19th century kaskaras).

While this information does not really address the search for pre-1750 use of these symbols, it does seem interesting regarding the established use of them. We know that the crescent moon image was widely used in antiquity and is also noted used as a stylized stamp or marking by Spanish smiths for one example (Juan Martinez of Toledo, mid 16th c. , Wagner, p.106). As we have noted, Spain was a main source for Solingen prototypes and much of the occult esoterica that entered Europe as well. We still need to see actual examples of the faced crescent moon on earlier blades as we have discussed, but the artistic style of the example on your blade seems clearly mid-18th c. as we have agreed.

I hope others might come in on this and give us more on such examples and especially on Peter Munich. As always, I wonder more on this identity, and exactly where and what period he actually worked. The Oakeshott attribution on the 18th century English baskethilt seems puzzling as well, with a blade seemingly comparable in date to yours and I agree with your suggestion of the Wagner reference as plausibly the root of the Munich attribution.

All the best ,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thank you for sharing your excellent research. Since we originally discussed this I have constantly been looking for these stars and moons. They are very prominent on later 18th century English military weapons with German blades. 1788's (top) and 1796's (second from top). I have pasted a few of the examples I have found. I suspect Castle's observations are regarding civilian weapons.
If I find any pre 1750's with the etched symbols this will be the first place I will paste them.

Thanks again Jim!
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
Outstanding examples!!! Thanks very much for posting them!
We'll keep looking OK? There must be examples out there of blades that may be early 18th century with such markings (still curious on Wagners illustrations of Munich examples with his very early period of activity).
Also have yet to see actual examples of the Spanish blades mentioned.
All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

You might find this thread interesting; http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=50438

All the Best
Jeff

sorry to interfere.
this motto would reflect a symbolic oath usually made the Knights Templars.
its engraving in swords blades, which became a fashion for so long, might or should have been at a later stage, but probably earlier than late XVII century ...
i have a serious little book, including a spanish sword of the late XVI century,
already with this wording.

Hi Fernando,
Thats outstanding!!! Could you please tell us more on that, as western sources have extremely little on this motto, and if you would please cite source for association to Knights Templar. The wording sounds very chivalrous and your note seems entirely plausible, but we need source for reference. Thank you very much for adding this information :)
All the best,
Jim

P.S. Its great to hear from you!! Long time since we talked!! :)

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the information. Like Jim I would love to check the reference. As an aside, here is a inscription I know you will like. It is "Viva de Portugal", sorry about the picture as the sword is in storage and I had to use an old photo.

Thanks again.
Jeff

hi Jim
allways a pleasure.
for a start, you have the following:

http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/s...symbolism.html

this site is related to masonry lecturing. but if you browse the net using the motto as the key, you will find several other pages, further masonry ones included, all giving account of the motto origin, in precisely the same manner. there seems to be no doubt about this.
we know that blade word engraving started very early, with all kinds of sayings and mottos. what is to be known is, if this motto is the strict oath pronounced by the templars, or a sort of condensation of a larger cerimonial speech ... and when has its engraving started, namely in clear castilian ( configuring a trade behaviour ? ). other members will probably know more about this.
naturally this and other spanish sugestive phrases were also common in portuguese swords of the 1600-1700 period, as i already saw some cup hilts with them on. some spanish colonial espada anchas also had this motto.
coming back to masonry, how's about the symbols like the ones in Jeff D's
basket hilt, the sun and the half moon, being masonic ? at least they deal with similar stuff, as can be seen.
if all this was the wrong answer, please tell what i missed.
lots of health for you, Jim

Hi Jeff D.
i like your piece!
intriguing inscription ... looks like its missing a part, though !
i'll explain: when you have this type of wording, you either wish to express " viva portugal" or "viva el rei x de portugal". the term "de" means "of", it only fits in the second statement. you are either long living the country or the king of the country. isn't there another wording on the other side, to adjust the phrase, even with an od composition? or is this sword a short piece, like a left hander, only with space for condensing the actual statement, figuring in full in the larger matching sword ? funny idea !
its really intriguing, at least for my humble knowledge, although i was already familiar with this type of inscriptions but i'll keep thinking about it ... while you please answer my above little questions, hoping i made myself clear.
kind regards

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the references as well as the information on my other sword. Both sides have the same inscription "Viva de Portugal" with the usual orb and cross symbols?

Thanks for the information!
Jeff

Hi Fernando,
Thank you very much for the link to the Masonic site which is most interesting and in rechecking data on this subject did find the 'Spanish motto' mentioned on a Mexican American War era sword used as a Tylers sword in a lodge in Texas. We have noted before in discussion that this motto occurred on many Spanish colonial blades of the latter 18th to early 19th centuries, and these often found use on early espada anchas, of this same period. It seemed quite appropriate that a sword carrying this motto on its blade found use as a key item of regalia in this Masonic lodge.

What is most intriguing is just how early was this 'motto' used, and your note on a book with a Spanish sword of late XVI century seems to illustrate earlier use than I had been aware of. Could you possibly say more on the books title and author? If possible post the illustration ?

We know that many arcane,occult and astrological symbols became important in the symbolism of Freemasonry, and the sun and moon were components in this as well as alchemical and other occult allegory. It is uncertain exactly how early these symbols were used as described in Masonic literature, or as far as I am aware, the wordings of particular oaths used in Knights Templars ceremony. It does seem very plausible that a similarly worded oath or motto might have derived from such Templars dogma, and quite possibly may have carried forth in the Spanish military orders. If that was indeed the case it would be wonderful to be able to define and support that lineage for the motto.

I really appreciate your excellent input and bringing in the very pertinant Masonic associations here, and hope you will add more.

All the very best,
Jim

Outstanding discussion, gentlemen. I'm enjoying this thread immensely.

I'm not the one to say anything about Masons, but just to make sure - afaik there is no possibility of this motto/motiff etc. been connected to anything cabbalistic. Strangely so I did actually see a "cabbalistic", an extremely high quality sword on ebay once.

It's probably better to say that any cabbalistic connection would have to be in a nth degree of remotness.

these are digital pictures of both little book and mentioned sword ( my scanner is broken ).
i wouldn't presume to cover such a complex theme like masonry and their self pretended connection to the templars, with all that implies. just remember that the cruzades saga generated the order of "poor knigths of christ"( 1128 ), after named "knights of the temple" ( templars ). when the pope clemente V banned the order in all countries in 1312, the portuguese king dom diniz, considering their achieved strenght, traded some trick with the pope and ended up keeping them, by renaming them "order of christ". this was a long shot, as this religious military order, headed by the best blood of portuguese nobles, like prince henry the navigator, were in the origin of the discoveries period, as from the XY century. the cross engraved in Jeff D sword must be the "cruz de cristo" ( christ cross ), a symbol brought from the templars gowns to the sails and armoury of the discovery soldiers.
whether the masonics descend and cultivate some of all the templars knowledge, be it intrinsecal, esoteric, you name it, is something that transcends me. some even say that templars still exist. i find this type of values, assumed by whomever, seven hundred years ago, only plausible if performed by history.
not to provoke a bottomless well, i'll stick to the little part of trying to find out the missing link in the swords motto engraving "no me saques ...", even a possible portuguese version of the text.
there are inumerous pages on this theme over here ... there must be some track.
sorry to be such a bore.

sorry, forgot to upload.
NO, IT WAS THE SIZE.

hi Jeff
is that sword the real thing? are we talking XVI century here? sorry for my ignorance.
but let's see: the cross ( no picture ) must be what i mentioned in the templar/masonic theme. the orb, most possibly the armilary orb ( esfera armilar ) was king dom manuel symbol ( 1495-1521 ).
he had it in all the country castle doors and in the armoury of the forces he sent out aboard the first long route discovery ships. eventualy both his orb and the templar cross appeared together in arms, armour, flags and i think sails of the time.the word portugal in "viva de portugal" must be portvgal, if you look better at the blade. the v for an u was dropped from the portuguese ( and castilian ... ) "just the other day". but the wording still doesn't make sense as a phrase. something is abnormal here.
i have picture of a 1642 portuguese extendeable blade rapier ( to ilude the blade length allowance ) quoted to have inscribed " viva el rey de portugael ". this pattern went on for a couple centuries, with and without the name of the king. in another picture, and with all the doubts for my non skilled eye, i see a sword similar to yours, named as a "combat (european ) sword of the second quarter XVI century", a beautyfull and emblematic portuguese specimen.
being genuine, your sword is not invalueable, but on the way to that.
keep well

how about this ?
http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/007.htm

embaines
 

Hello,
I was just passing by and saw the current discussion...
Very interesting the arscives 1991 site. Lots of interesting swords there, although some miscatalogation too. For example number 5 is not African but a very specific portuguese form from late XVth early XVIth. Some "Portuguese made" I find discutible on the other hand.

But what brought me here. I am also intrigued by the motto "no me embaines..." and would be very interesting to find a XVI century sword with it. However I consider the example provided to be a remounting with a newer (Late XVII to early XVIIIth , possibly genoese) blade.

About Portuguese patriotic mottoes, they appear for example even in official Spanish military models (like what later would be the called 1728 model, an example at Poldi-Pezzoli, Milan), and cannot give clues about nationalities.

Javier

hi midelburg
the miscatalogation of these examples does not end with the sources appointing to the earlier period this motto was engraved on blades. same with the language used, maybe latin came first.
when the spanish conquistadores founded bogota in 1538, their leader gonzalo jimenez de quesada was using a toledo sword with the motto no me saques sin razon ... a code of the followers of el cid ( quoting jose maria vergara y vergara in fundacion de bogota ).
el cid lived on 1043-1099. if this were a true story, contradicts the prior assumption that the motto was originated on the templars oath, as this order was founded later.
the missing link prevails

I'm not a specialist on templars, but I would doubt any connection with the motto. Very similar motto in different languages exist in every caucasian nation - circassians, chechens etc. , only instead of "honor" they have "blood".

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that real templars (I don't mean Christian clubs, that put "templars" in their names) would use such an oath. Obedience, humility (they had to give up their pocessions, did not they ?) and faith would be far more appropriate virtues for a templar, rather than honor.

Honor was always associated with a relatively secular world - you can't imagine the Pope "defending his honor" by slashing someone in half ?

hi Rivkin
i am no specialist either.
but maybe things are not just black and white.
on one hand we can read that the order's rules did not allow for any kind of decorations on their swords. but they were men at arms, a military order, meant to use their weapons, eventually in the name of christ. and boy, they intensively did.assuming the motto as such was not developed by the order, its basic concept wouln't look so unfit in their cruzader cavalry codes.
it's true they had to give away their possessions ... but it doesn't seem they ever wanted it to. in the beginning, they were named "poor knights" assuming they lived personally as beggars, but suddenly the order appeared dealling with imense fortunes ... specially silver. they practised banking and put up the letter of credit. when they were banned, their real estate was transferred to another order, but they managed to go around and get it back.
as for the slasher pope idea, it depends on the period and on the pope. alexander VI ( borgia ) for example, used poison to knock his victims, our famous motto wouldn't suit the poison flask situation.

Hi All,

Sorry for the late response, things have been very busy. Thanks for all the input, I had never thought of a templar/masonic connection to any of the symbols or mottos. That is something I will try to look into in the future.

Fernando, I do think my second sword is 16th maybe early 17th century. The quillions are probably not original. I also believe you are correct with the v instead of the u. As mentioned it is in storage right now, but I will bring it out in the next couple months to check it and will take photo's then.

Thanks again to every one for the great discussion.

All the Best.
Jeff

mottoes
 

I think the reason of not finding the "no me envaines" motto earlier than late XVII is both technical and cultural. Technical because the use of cheap acid etching did not become spread before that (OK we find it in Royal swords in XIII century but that is not common). It was usual than the letters were carved or punched one by one, and texts are shorter, rarely more than 10 characters, quite often ininteligible acrostics, and here comes the cultural point, taking the effort to do them, they prefer religious to boastful phrases, at less while swords are more a killing tool than a fashion toy.

Still it is perfectly possible that an example from XVIth or earlier exists, but it will be far from common. When did that Vargas wrote? I would trust him if contemporary to the facts, but not later (the least if he is from XIXth. c). For example Colombians keep as a sacred relic the so called "Sword of Bolivar", suposed to be used in their independance from Spain, 1815-1821, what it is actually a Toledo model from about 1835.

Now I think of it I have a boast rapier blade from around 1610, it has written by punching inside the fuller: "NOMENE TENGO", what possibly means "no me ne attretengo". In English from an Italian dialect "I do not care", and it was adopted as business mark from a Bergamo swordsmith. I will not be surprised if the "no me envaine motto" appeared first in a mutilated way or as initials:
N.M.S.S.R-N.M.E.S.H

Javier