European Piha Kaetta
 

this is a very interesting piece. of exhibition size, and materials used mean its of decorative manafacture, but it has been created by three artisans, each as important as the other. the description, as stated (look at the size) -

cast in copper gilt, the blade and pistol grip hilt decorated with elaborate scrolls and a bands of foliate patterning, areas of scrolled openwork to the blade, the pommel terminating in a knop finial, inscriptions at grip and along the back edge of the blade. 44cm
INSCRIPTION
F. BARBEDIENNE (caster)
D. ATTARDOE fecit (maker)
C[onstant] SEVIN (1821-88) (designer/modeller) 1870

As indicated by the inscriptions, this fine dagger was the work of a three-man team, the caster, the maker and the designer. The design is based on a Sinhalese horn or ivory prototype called a Piha Kaetta characterised by a pistol-shaped hilt and the distinctive Sinhalese profuse scrolling decoration known as liya pata (vine leaf) (Archer 1987, p.45). This dagger like its Sri Lankan counterparts would have been used for ceremonial purposes only. This may well have been a diplomatic gift between French and Sri Lankan dignitaries.

Interesting
 

And culturally sensitive too .

In my readings I recall that the Afghan Lord Dost Mohammed was infuriated by the Western manufactured items that were brought to him as gifts the first time a British legation visited Kabul .

B.I. have you personally seen this piha ?
What is the black material near the end of the blade ? :confused:

Thanks for posting this, Brian. Absolutely beautiful!

If I'm not mistaken, I believe this knife was presented at the Timonium Seminar this past March.

hi rick/andrew,
yes, i saw and handled it this morning. the whole piece is copper, with all but the blade being gilt. the 'black' is the light catching it. the balde is relatively plain. the gilt is worn in places, but this just highlights the decoration in a very attractive way. the inscriptions are in very neat script.
i wasnt aware it was shown at the timonium, but recall someone saying Bob H had a few ceylonese pieces there, but cant remember if it was the march show. if this was the case andrew, then it all makes sense.

Wow,
I missed out. I would like to see that up close. It looks like they captured the vine art or liya vela style incorporated into the decoration of pihas.

Is the grip assembled from separate elements or is it cast in one piece? I can't tell from the pics. Either way, its a prety nice effort.

I'd like to have a pic of it on pihakaetta.com. Who do I ask? BTW, what source are you quoting in the description?
-d

hi derek,
as far as i can tell, it was all in one piece. getting a better picture would be very hard, unfortunately.
i've sent you a pm.

If the Italians can make Piha Kaettas, why wouldn't the Rajastanis make Dhas or the Thais Kastanes?
Weapons know not borders.....
(Am I misquoting someone famous?)

It was, indeed, Bob that presented this knife. :)

lol. You are relentless, Ariel. :p

Show me a dha with "made in Rajastan by...", and I'll happily concede the point. ;)

sorry, i forgot to mention its of french manafacture. i assume the creators were well known and recorded, as this isnt speculated.

hi,
this wasnt easy, so if we ever meet up at a show, derek, you owe me a pint of the good stuff :-)
i took the images, so they are yours to do with as you please.

more

Fantastic, and make that a keg. The old craftsmen of Ceylon were trained from childhood to use various artistic techniques that reflected the land they lived in. Terms like "liya pata", "liya vela", "sina mal", etc. are all derived from flowers and vines found there. Yet to my eye these guys have reproduced the styles with admirable results. Really beautiful, thanks for sharing.

-d

As I recall from Bob Hale's discussion of this piha, the designer was well-known, and possibly the maker (my memory is fuzzy, I know Bob indicated). I do not recall anything about the caster.

Some more information on this specific dagger, which is quite a famous example of three collaborators work.

The decorator Sevin , the sculptor and the founder Attarge Barbedienne combined their talents to the production of this dagger. Several works produced by their association are found in large French and foreign museums. BARBEDIENNE Ferdinand (1810-1892) founded his house in 1839 and established his art foundry in Paris 30 boulevard Poissonnière . The combination of Art and Industry , promoted under the Second Empire , placed at the head of the largest manufacture of bronze art in Paris during the second half of the nineteenth century. Its production was rewarded at Universal Exhibitions . Louis -Constant Sevin (1821-1888) was a sculptor and decorator and was from 1855 to 1888, the main collaborator Ferdinand Barbedienne whose formidable success rested on its considerable activity (two thousand drawings listed ) . Sévin's talent was recognized and award-winning , including at the Universal Exhibitions in London in 1862 and Paris in 1867 and 1878. Attarge Désiré (1820-1878) was a renowned sculptor, much appreciated by Sevin. In 1855 , he entered the service of Barbedienne who praised his art by this comment "under the skillful and intelligent hand which the metal softens and takes on delicate forms."

Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing? :shrug: :confused:
To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above.

Parallels
 

A matter of legitimacy then .

Well yes, not just culturally, but also in execution because as far as i know real Piha Kaettas are not cast in one piece in this manner. This is kind of like a Franklin Mint replica to me. A bit pretty on the surface perhaps, but with no soul or substance.
To fill others in on you remark Rick, perhaps we should direct them you the discussion currently on the keris forum. :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...754#post164754

I AGREE WITH DAVID THE WORKMANSHIP AND TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES USED EXCEED THIS FRENCH MADE ITEM. BOTH ARE NICE BUT ONE IS FORIGN MADE USING NON TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS. I PERSONALLY WOULD PREFER THE TRADITIONAL PHIA OVER THE FRENCH ART PIECE WITH FAMOUS NAMES BUT BOTH ITEMS WOULD BE WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE FRENCH MADE ONE SHOULD APPEAL TO THOSE WHO COLLECT ITEMS MADE BY THE FAMOUS ARTISTS WHO CONTRIBUTED. PERHAPS ANDY WARHOL COULD HAVE MADE SOMETHING CEYLON'ISH BUT THE ITEMS VALUE WOULD BE SECONDARY TO THE NAME OF THE ARTIST AND WHO KNOWS WHAT CULTURE AND TECKNIQUE IT WOULD HAVE EXHIBITED. :shrug:

DOUBLE POST :confused:

Not downplaying the beauty and the authentic techniques of the original Piha Kaettas, I am perfectly content with the European thing.
It is, IMHO, a nice homage to the Ceylonese original and does not pretend to be one: it is even signed by the master. It is a curiosity in the same sense as using Japanese motives in contemporary European art and fashion, or Japanese pictures of the late 19th/20th centuries employing purely European techniques. Weapons are no different: the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas ( or was it the other way around? :-)), the Indonesians might have copied their Kerises from Indian examples, and the best contemporary examples of Nihonto are being made by Western masters and are commanding high prices even in Japan.

Art has no borders, and as long as it is not an outright deceitful fake , it is perfectly legitimate and should be judged on its own merits.

Double post.

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

A&A, outstanding information and follow up on this knife and thank you so much for bringing this thread up and sharing it here. Well done!

Interesting post and subject. It is useful to note that the copying in non-ferrous metal of native weapons by Europeans, has an 18th century precedent. The explorer and naturalist, Joseph Banks who sailed with Cook on his first voyage, was so impressed by the Maori short club or "patu", that on his return to England he had several brass copies cast, for distribution to Maori notables on his anticipated second voyage with Cook. However, in the event, Banks did not sail to the South Seas a second time.

Here is an image of the brass version...

We will have to agree to disagree then. While it may be interesting to discuss how and why this copy was used in international diplomacy and the history of that i see no such discussion on that subject taking place here. Why was this piece created in the first place? Was this a presentation piece? To whom and when? I might see some merit in that discussion if there was some historical perspective to it. As an object on to itself i see nothing particularly fantastic about this piece.
I also disagree that this is the same as outside cultural motifs being incorporated into the art of European culture. Those artist still created something original. This is just a copy and IMHO it has no ethnographic integrity. The Javanese keris may well have it's influences in some Indian dagger form, but it is not a copy of that form. If it were we would find keris forms in India. Those India daggers served as an inspiration for development and the keris evolved in Java as a unique form. And if the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas, did they cast them in one piece to artsy copper paperweights or were they forging real bladed weapons for real use?

Very well put rebuttal David, and now that you have expanded on your comments I can see your perspective, which is interesting, and of course distinctly your opinion. I did not mean to imply this particular piece was actually used in a diplomatic role, but that it was clearly produced during a period where colonial and trade activity had attracted great interest in items of exotica.
As you well point out, this item indeed does not have any specific integrity from an ethnographic posture, that is, it is not culturally representative per se. However it does seem interesting to me, and apparently to others, as I have indicated earlier, from perhaps an artistic and somewhat historic point of view . Antique Arms clearly reflected his interest by reviving this thread of nearly 8 years ago by sharing data which was not only pertinent but extremely helpful in updating this thread, exactly the kind of action many of us here hope for in building collective and archived knowledge on many topics.

Colin, thank you so much for the excellent example you have posted of the Maori club, which illustrates perfectly exactly what I was trying to point out.

I think we are all aware of copies and reproductions of arms and armor, which of course are typically regarded as quite unimportant in the view of those of us who are historically attuned in the collection of arms. However many examples of such arms from earlier periods have actually become antiquities in their own right, case in point those from the atelier of Ernst Schmitt of Germany. Here the copies of medieval and renaissance arms and armor, skillfully crafted and carefully researched were so well executed that many ended up in museum displays years later. While admittedly 'copies', they have gained their own place in the field of arms collecting.

I do see your point however in noting that the character of this piece does not comply with the production of the original weapons in that it is more aligned with artistic merit than sound functionality. I would note here that this is often the case in many weapons of the 18th century forward such as many court type swords and fraternal swords, which were distinctly accoutrements of fashion and regalia, but still count as collectible arms in many fields.

Thank you for explaining your position David, and while we agree to disagree here, it is good that we are able to elaborate on the reasons for our opinions for the benefit of discussion.

European made Piha
 

A side note, I have seen several similar piha by the same caster. Just as an example see attached. Heavy silver plated brass, 35 cm long

To me their nice curiosity's or wall hangers, but hardly arms....

There not intended to be functional, so there not arms. :shrug:

spiral

Folks, I think the opinions went in the opposite directions, but the courses were parallel so that we could never reach a common destination

The French "piha" was not intended to be a weapon: it was made as an object of art after the fashion of an exotic Sinhalese knife. It could have been used as a letter opener, no more. ( And, BTW, the original Pihas were also not weapons, but rather utility knives; the tasks of the two examples were similar but somewhat different).

We just cannot judge the French example on the basis of its fighting capabilities, and there are plenty of examples among our traditional " sharpies".

Javanese kerises lost their fighting function long ago, with the exception of rare cases of domestic violence, for which purpose the French Piha would also do swimmingly. Still, there are people who collect kerises for their technologically useless pamor patterns, exotic wood, carvings etc. Most of the daggers in the new Robert Hales' book were never drawn in anger, they were just expensive baubles. We have heard from one of the members that the ferocious Omani kattaras were in fact just dancing props. The "golden age" of Caucasian kindjals came well after they outlived their fighting purpose and became a part of the costume, akin to the pocket watch with a thick golden chain.

The French Pihas ( thanks, Artzi, for providing the justification to use the plural :-)) are just nice artistic renditions. Any Piha collector would love to add them to his bunch of the "real stuff" with no fear of being called a sissy.

Just relax, there is no sense going ballistic because some Frenchie made a pretty paperweight:-)

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word arms... Thy are for scribes after all.

I just should have said their virtualy non functional...

Paper weights, wall hangers {art} & letter openers not withstanding.

But each to their own.

full size Cast brass kukris copied from originals turn up on ebay & auctions sometimes, there good cast renditions.... They usually reach about $15.

In my youth I worked in a foundry... I could have copy cast hundreds of such items every day....Pihas, kuks whatever....

So to me they don't have much allure, other than any history attached.

The genuine featured Piha is a nice example of an ethnographic arm though... woops.. I mean an ethnographic & functional tool.. :) :D

spiral

I seem to recall a recent thread where there were miniature likenesses of ethno weapons that were like 'salesman samples'. They generated a great deal of interest and praise even though they were neither real weapons, nor where they exacting in detail- :shrug:

That being said, I am a collector of weapons, pure and simple. I'm not in it for the art or craftsmanship, strictly the history. As such, I prefer the 'real deal' over art pieces, but it is an interesting piece none-the-same if nothing more than to show the growing European interest and respect for SEA items, especially in the time period that the faux piha was made. Glad it was brought up again.

Ariel, i am afraid that there is a rather large hole in your understanding of keris if you consider pamor patterns "useless" and if you have no grasp of the spiritual importance of the exotic woods that are often employed in keris dress. The cultural significance of these things are huge, pamor patterns are not merely artistic designs for art's sake alone but carry deep significance and purpose. That for me is a large part of the difference here between these french "art" Pihas and the real thing. It is devoid of cultural significance and is merely a "pretty" object.
I might also suggest that while Pihas are certainly not combat weapons they are a bit too extravagant to be considered simple utility knives. Certainly there is some ritual application involved here, no? These knives have a rather complex construction and often involve the use of somewhat precious materials such as ivory, silver and gold. Most utility knives are a bit simpler.

Salaams Ariel, Do you still have your old Omani Battle Sword? They(the original form) are from even earlier than we thought and the suggestion is nearer 600.AD. By the way its not the curved Kattara which is the dancer... its the straight flexible OMANI Sayf..1744AD. In addition it is safer to consider that weapon as a badge of office rather than simply relegate it to the dancing prop. It is an heraldic item in praise of an entire Dynasty- not only for dancing.
In so far as this thread I see no comparison in linking it to cheap copies since it is clearly stamped and with a full European provenance. It is simply a project piece. It is hardly comparable to the excellent workmanship on the original so I am a little surprised that it passed muster when a better more expert effort could have been made.. The French made superb quality Koummya for example.. Quite often workshops take on a design but provided they are honest about it and stamp it correctly it simply enters the fold as that... and is indeed part of the ethnographic story. Many copies (unstamped ) were knocked up in western workshops of Sri-Lankan swords for belly dancing and Up the Khyber Martini Henry copies were being turned out regularly.
In this case we have a single stamped Piha Kheta; which is what it is; A project item.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Fascinating discussion, and it is great to see this kind of input!
Very well said Ibrahiim, on all points . It is indeed important to note that the Omani sayf has indeed long stood as a dynastic leitmotif as a rather heraldic device, and its ceremonial properties are but one instance in its overall historic character .
I believe we established some time ago that while swords of this form were indeed with particularly flexible blades locally produced were used in the key dance events, there were certainly many with quite sound blades which found use in ersatz circumstances as weapons. These were often with many of the trade blades of German origin .
These sayf were also well established as important accoutrements of status worn by the merchants and though often ostentatious, in the same manner as court and dress swords certainly could be used as formidable weapons if need be.

Regarding the note on what Ariel had observed concerning the pamor in the keris, I believe he had specified that this feature in these blades was 'technologically' useless...an entirely different analogy. The spiritual and metaphysical properties of the keris are well known and respected of course, and the point he was making was directed toward the more physical characteristics.

Mark Eley also made a very good point concerning the miniature weapons which often served as models or examples for merchants and makers as samples. Miniature arms have long been produced as novelties and testament to fine craftsmanship which were much favored by nobility and court figures as well as gentry. I recall when RDC Evans (author of"The Plug Bayonet"), who had long become a well established authority on all forms of bayonets sold off his huge collection to pursue the study and collection of miniature arms. While these would certainly not be of use combatively, their place as keen representations of actual arms has created a dynamic interest in them as collectibles.
It has long been established here that the miniature arms in many panoplies of weapon forms of various regions in Asia and Indonesia are much sought after collectible items.

It is important to recognize here as has been well pointed out, these examples of piha kaetta are clearly stamped and do not purport to in any way deceive or diminish the cultural properties of the weapons they are fashioned from. They are artistic impressions of the weapon seen more as a tribute to them, and certainly well placed examples of ethnographica in that respect.
The position attempting to compare them categorically to the originals and classify them as copies in the sense of deceptive reproductions is of course entirely specious, however the discussion that has developed has brought fascinating perspective to these kinds of arms.

Whether or not pamor patterns are "technologically" useful or culturally useful seems immaterial to the discussion for me, though i do appreciate that Ariel made that distinction. The point is that they do serve an important cultural and spiritual purpose in the keris world as does the choice of certain wood and wood patterning in the dress. Dismissing legitimacy of the keris because its main function is no longer that of a weapon minimizes its importance as perhaps the single most powerful symbol of an entire culture, a symbolic icon which is still active and functioning in Indonesia to this day. Even though it is not used as a weapon anymore it is far more than merely an item of required dress at certain high functions or an objet d'art.
I don't think anyone here is denying that the French Pihas are indeed collectible items. Of course they are as are miniature arms. Neither has anyone suggested that they have been or could be passed off as the real thing. No one is claiming any deception here. They may or may not attract the edged weapons collector, depending upon their personal tastes in collecting, but they might well be the prize of somebody's collection somewhere. The F. BARBEDIENNE name is no doubt a big one in the world of French antiques and one of these would certainly attract a lot of attention on the Antiques Road Show. What they are not are ethnographic arms, no matter how you cut it. They are sculptures. Their intention is as a representation of an ethnographic knife, but to my eyes they are not even really knives per se, they are an artistic representation of a knife. Also to my eye they are FAR less exquisite than good examples of the real thing. My original response to this thread was brought on by all the "wows", "oohs" and "aahs" that these copies seem to have evoked from members. I am still baffled. The funny thing is that i am willing to bet that these sculptural reproductions would probably command a much higher price in the general world of antiques that the much more exquisitely crafted real example that i posted earlier based solely upon the F. BARBEDIENNE signature. Go figure…
Hopefully some of you will understand what i mean when i say "Ceci nest pas un Piha Kaetta". ;)

Nice riposte David! and again thank you for elaborating in expressing your opinions. Surprisingly it does not seem that we are that far apart in our perceptions regarding this item as you have noted that no deception is intended in these artistic interpretations of the piha kaetta by French artisans. You also reflect accord in noting that even these artistic pieces certainly do have merit to some in the collecting fraternity much as shown in the miniature weapons instance.
It seems you agree that it is indeed a matter of personal preference, though you are baffled by the responses of a number of our members to items you clearly do not favor and quite disdain.

When this thread was brought up by Antique Arms who thoughtfully shared additional data concerning this interesting item, I was personally most pleased, not necessarily toward the topic but to see participation and follow up by a new member. In reading the material I found it most intriguing and it frankly piqued my interest in a subject I had not previously followed.

While I must admit to never having any particular interest in the keris, I have never been 'baffled' by the interest of others in them. In point of fact, I admire those who have pursued the study of them and maintain the proper respect and understanding of them. Again, in my perception, it is to each his own, and I strongly support the efforts and participation of everyone in their own fields of collecting and studies. These pages are for sharing data and interests

By the same token I applaud your defense of the cultural importance of the keris and the piha kaettta, however I don't believe that aspect of these cultural icons have been compromised in any of the observations or comments here. The comments on the pamor of the keris and their collectability for the woods etc. were in my opinion carefully qualified as toward 'technological' properties in regard to comparison of ethnographic items as 'weapons', so apparently the legitimacy of the keris was not being questioned, but the analogy was clearly a fragile one.

Returning to the origin of this discussion, I would like to thank Antique Arms once again for your excellent participation in posting this data, and join the others in observing the fine craftsmanship of this French tribute to that of the Ceylonese artisans and culture.

Amen!