Silver mounted badek for coments
 

Badek ... badik ... badiik. I see all three versions out there; which one would be correct ?
The blade is 10" (25 cms.) long.
The seller dated it 18-19th century ... would 18th make some sense ?
Some signs of restoring can be seen on the wooden parts.
I wonder whether this is a current piece or a bit of a "presumptious" example, with its silver mountings ... i mean in its due period.
Would anyone care to coment on it ?
I would be most gratefull.
Fernando

Lovely example with a nice pamor blade, and nice silver bolster,

I think I am most impressed by the silver scabbard fittings that appear to be legitimate old ones, which are getting harder and harder to find.

Nice catch!!

Thank you Charles.
Silver fittings undoubtfully originals, as checked at sight.
Any opinnion on its age, judging by its pattern ?

A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE ,TOP QUALITY WORKMANSHIP WITH SOME AGE TO IT.
I COULD BE OFF ON THIS OBSERVATION BUT MOST OF THE BADEK I HAVE SEEN ARE MUCH MORE PLAIN AND DON'T HAVE THE TOP QUALITY SILVER WORK. I HAVE SEEN THIS QUALITY OF WORK MORE OFTEN ON KLEWANGS AND LARGER WEAPONS.

Very nice and rarely we could find badik with finely repoussed silver works with floral motifs. As Vandoo said, it's often found on klewang and pedang. I've seen it on Sumatran sewar as well. Normally we can expect this this kind of elaborate silver works pieces to be dated 19th century. The blade could be much older, maybe late 18th century where new silver fittings were added on later.

as we are transliterating a word from a non western language into a western phonetic alphabet, all of them are valid, as would other spellings with the same sound...even amongst native english speakers from differing countries, ie. USA, UK, Australia & NZ, the pronunciation of vowels, AEIOU (& sometimes Y) has drifted. i personally prefer 'badek' for my similar but lesser one ('badik' is used by buttin on the forum's sister Reference Site ) the 'badek' i was sold by a malaysian dealer was spelled 'badek' in his ads for it. (not this one tho)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...w/badek2-1.jpg

Thank you for your kind words, Barry and Newsteel :)

I thaught i would post today the decoration on the scabbard opposite side. Yesterday i didn't notice that the two sides had a different detail ... i had bought this piece a couple hours before i took the first pictures :shrug: .

Thank you Kronckew, for the hint on the spelling. Once you mention the different vowels pronunciation amongst the various english speaking natives, i can not ignore that latinic languages have a completely distinct sound for them. Being phonetics the main reason for the different transliterations, i guess that Badik will be the closest sound/spell for me to adopt :cool:
Fernando
PS
Isn't Buttin French ( latinic) speaking ?

I tend to be very conservative about dating...at least that's what I am told.

I would say the blade is 19th century. The silver work is a tougher call because similar to identical patterns are used today in low grade silver work for both new pieces and restorations.

The central panel of silver work is more common(today) than the work at the scabbard mouth in my opinion, so I think in combination this is very old work, certainly no later then very early 20th Century.....just my opinion.

Excuse me, does any of you have historical references about this kind of work in silver? I mean, it can only be made chiselled from "above" with the scabbard already formed and soldered, or it can be made with a combination of repousee and chiselling, from both sides of the open piece, and the scabbard finally been closed and soldered, which is a very difficult thing to do as the fitting among the borders would be distorted by the previous work. I´ve read many times the use of the word "repousee" applied to both kind of techniques. Chiselling can also be made creating different levels on the surface (volumes), and not only as a plain one level draw. Thank you.

Dear Gonzalo,

Nice badek. Good addition to any collection.
I have no historical info on this workmanship.
But I am told that this work needs working from both sides of the metal sheet.
If this is done the old way a lot of work and time goed into it.
The metal must be heated and cooled down between the forging to prevent it from cracking.

Gonzalo, chiseling refers to more of an engraving process where material is removed from the surface. Repousse is where the sheet metal must be thin and hammered from both sides (one side would be called chasing). Asomotif is right in that the material for repousse must be reheated constantly.

Nice repousse on the badik scabbard.

Nice to hear that, José.
I see that this time i've got myself a decent piece.
Fernando

Very decent IMHO :)

Oh boy ... thanks a lot Willem ;)

The designs look Burmese to me (see example below). Maybe it is from southern Burma. They are used in both Burma and Thailand, undoubtedly due to the Malaysian influence (not the other way around).

A very good point on the naming, how we see it written is often westernized. The other thing to remember is that there are a number of different peoples living close to each other each with thier own dialects in this part of the world. The name for the same blade would be differerent in Gayo than Alas, still different in Sumatran. Batak etc. this particular one is listed as Badek, Bade, Badee, Badi, Badi Badi, Badik, Badik Badik and Badit in "Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipeligo.

In Jawa this type of dagger is named "badhik"; badik is acceptable.

The type of silver work on the one under discussion appears to be exactly the same type of work that is currently used to make pendok and other silver items in Jogja and surrounds. This is done by first fabricating the form, then filling it with wax and applying the motif by hammering with different types of punches.When the work is finished the wax is removed by boiling the pendok. During the work process the pendok is held firm in a bed of hard wax.

I understand that the Dutch introduced this silver working technique in the 19th century.

The photos with this post are of two badhik in my possession. According to Javanese people with whom I have spoken and who have some knowledge in this field, these two badhik are of Javanese origin.

Interesting information on the manufacturing technique. It is almost exactly the same as is used in Burma, No. Thailand and Laos to make repouseed silver. Instead of wax a heavy resin is used. The work is don in stages, between which the resin is melted and re-set to make room for the next level of detail. I wonder if that technique has a Dutch origin as well, though it would be surprising that it would reach that far north, essentially leap-frogging a large area in between.

Coincidentally, a dah from this thread also has this same floral design. The dha was collected in Cambodia, but I believe that it, too, is from Laos or Northern Thailand.

Mark
My thought , and its just a guess, is that these floral, faunal and geometric patterns may come from the strong early Islamic influence in the indonesian area. Would early Islamic trade in the area account for migrations of these patterns to Cambodia ?

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

You are not being difficult. You bring out a great point I was not talking about the technique as much as these patterns. And I never meant to imply Islamic was the only influence on these patterns. Yes decorations of plant life have been used throughout the world. Depictions of birds are often attibuted to Hindu influences. As noted in "Hands of Time" by Barbara Leigh noted that Wakelin-king suggests that Indonesian designs, and indeed most designs from the western pacific region frequently conform to some or all of the following characteristics: a predispositions to arrainge motifs within compartments, the use of two dimensional rectilinear and curvilinear motifs appearing in bands or withinclearly demarcated zones, a tendency towards endless repetition, a tendency to use shallow relief forms on a flat surface in incised designs rather than sculptural or plastic forms, and a dominance of major tonal contrasts or absence of polychrome design ingredients so that the design can clearly be "read" in black and white. The floral and faunal motifs are often attributed to costal muslim influences, Some of the geometric motifs may be also though others can be traced back to the Dongson Period and these are certainly also an influence. Sumatran geometric influences can be traced back further , to approximately 2000 BC so they are also pre islamic. So I would love to hear other ideas on the origination of these motifs. Even if those ideas prove I am very wrong

Fernando, first of all, I didn´t congratulate you for this beautiful piece before, but I do it now. It is a very nice piece of work.

Thank you for your comments about the silver work. It happens that I studied some silversmithing and have some intimate understanding of this craft. The silversmiths in some places of Latin América uses to make hilts and scabbards of chiseled silver in the same ways than in this badik is done. We make the scabbards, fill them with a special mixture of waxes and asphaltic resin, fixi the the scabbards in a box filled with the same mixture and then chisel them from above. I mean, the work is not done from inside, or it would be called "repousee". We make the volumes and the "levels" from upside. I checked with my friends, more experienced silversmiths, and they confirmed me this bandik and scabbard was only chiseled, meaning worked form above. But as Battara says, it could be better called "chasing", as the meaning of "chiselling" has another connotations in english. The point is that the work is done from above and not from the inside. I know what do you mean by a reposee type of work, but I think this is not the case. Please see this page, where you can find illustrations of hilts and scabards chased in this way, entirely form above with the scabbard already formed and soldered:

http://www.malamudorfebre.com/english/cuchillos-en.htm

And as you say, between steps the work is reheated and then suddenly dipped in cold water with some nitric or sulphuric acid, in order to soften the metal, the acid being useful to clean it´s surface.

Thank you for your attention

Gonzalo

Does it help (or complicates) to show this example ?
... Both for the silver decoration, that looks partly a similar work to my ignorant eyes, as also for the blade, that somehow reminds me the one show by Alan in post #17 ... naturally influenced by the date marking attitude.
Most probably you already knew this specimen, shown here.
http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/badik/bad03/bad03.htm
Fernando

Hello Fernando,

The blades of Alan's and Dominque's badik are made from Dutch VOC swords - possibly the blades of broken colonial swords got recycled and given a 2nd life while your nice piece has a Javanese pamor blade.

Regards,
Kai

I have see an Latok with this dear design on the Handle

Also some keris who had this in gold on the blade .



Ben

Hi Kai,
I understand that, although my intention was to remark an eventual familiarity between those blades, this has nothing in common with my example, which is of local production.
I have registered this piece of mine as being from the Sulawesi island; should i change it to Jawa, or is this an indiferent situation ?
Thanks.
Fernando

What say you Mark, after the various considerations posted ?
Could this really be a neighbour of the Thai "meed pra dae" ( vide The Dha Research Glossary ;) ), or is it better atributable to its primitive provenance ... Sulawesi, Indonesia ?
Fernando

fernando

The grip seems to be of the Javanese shape.

Repoussage and chasing
 

Technically speaking this is both repoussage and chasing. The repoussage {punching} can be applied on either side of the work. The highlights have been chased in {usually cutting as in engraving, to cut details in casting and other work}. This extract from "Jewelery concepts and technology" by " Oppi Untracht" A weighty tome the BIBLE for first year students, says stuff better than I can.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/Geronimo.jpg

Thank you, Tim. I discovered another thing from your languaje and found the source of confussion, as in spanish, or at least in Latin American spanish, we use the word "repujado" (repousée) in silversmithing only to the work done from the back, and chiseled to the work made from the front. We don´t have an equivalent of the word "chasing", and even in the dictionaries I just consulted right now, this word is traslated to spanish as "cincelado" or "chiselled". Is a confussion it just happens, like with the word "tempered", or in spanish "templado", which applied to steel thermal treatments in spanish means "hardened" and in english another thing. I will not commit the same error again.
With my best regards

Gonzalo

Tim, I am not a silversmith, nor a jeweller, so I do not know terms as they are used in the trade. Within the trade, repousse and chasing could well carry the meanings you have given.

However, in standard English usage, repousse means :- "Of metal work. Raised or beaten into relief, ornamented in relief, by means of hammering from the reverse side." (Oxford)

Chasing of metal work is actually an abbreviation of "enchasing", and it means :- "To adorn metal with work embossed or engraved in relief." (Oxford).

Thus, this silver work could be designated as chasing, since the motif incorporates embossing work as well as engraving work. The word comes from Middle English, and can be applied to not only ornamental metal work, but also other types of indentation or grooving, or to the cutting of a screw.

However, common usage would see this work designated as "embossing".

The word "emboss" can be used in a number of various applications, but the one that would concern this discussion is:- "To carve or mould in relief." (Oxford)

The silver work under discussion has been produced by a combination of moulding the motif in relief by the use of punches, and by engraving some of the details. All the ornamentation has been applied to the face of the object, it has not been applied from behind. It could be referred to as embossed work, or as chased work, but in standard English usage it would be incorrect to refer to it as repousse.


As a supplementary comment I will add this:- I have spent a lot of time watching the craftsmen of Kota Gede near Jogjakarta doing this work. It is truly amazing to watch these people, most of the time they seem to work automatically, without any apparent effort or concentration on the work. In one workshop that is owned by a friend of mine, there are perhaps 20 or more men all working alongside one another, as they work they will be smoking, and chatting about the weekend's football match, or how many fish they caught. Their attention is not directed at the work they are doing, except when they come to some difficult detail, the rest of the time they are looking everywhere else but at the job, and their hands seem to work independent of themselves. Sometimes they will work to a photograph or sketch, sometimes a motif is sketched onto the silver and they follow that, mostly they work from memory. They will be told to emboss something with such and such a motif, they will put small guide marks around the edge of the job to help them keep the correct distribution of the motif over the work area, then they will work freehand, using a variety of punches to apply the motif in relief.

Chasing example.
 

This is an example of what we in the trade in the UK call chasing. A good chaser can make not so good work presentable, if there is the budget they can make work sparkle with life detail and grandeur. Like these feathers making them very life like in real space. wing span 35"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...eronimo004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...eronimo003.jpg

I think that the two terms are synonymous, being simply the names for this kind of knife in the respective languages.

JT - a good point about possible Islamic influences. Craftsmen were deported from one region to another during the near-constant wars across continental SEA, so now that I think of it, it is quite possible that the style jumped that distance, in one direction or the other. I think that is more likely than simple diffusion, given the distances.

Tim - I appreciate the correction. Am I right to say, then, that the technique of filling the piece with something semi-soft is a basic part of doing repoussee/chasing? One of the things that I have to keep reminding myself is that just because I find something about manufacturing or design that seem characteristic of the particular area of my interest (SEA), it does not mean that there is anything unique about it vis a vis the rest of the world. I need to read more broadly in such areas. :o

Yes Mark. The basic design can be punched into a semi hard material, punched out from behind so to speak but one can work from the front all depending on the work. My colleague's and I would tend to see chasing as a cutting embellishment. However using the old English term explained by Alan, chasing would be punching in under cuts from the front and where needed making detailing cuts to the surface but I am not really an expert.

I am afraid i didn't make myself understood. What i meant to ask you was whether you maintain your previous sugestion quoted in post #15, concerning the possible provenance of this piece.

The "meed pra dae" thing was only me trying to get smart.

Fernando

New References
 

A. G. Maisey, thank you for your perspective, you sent me into a better search. I was looking in my old metalworking books, and I found a very clear reference to the point by Herbert Maryon, who, by the way, is very inn the trade, and also wrote abook which is a BIBLE among silversmiths of the classical school. In this book, titled Metal Work and Enamelling, in the chapter XIII, second paragraph, he says: "Strictly speaking, repoussé is that part of the work which is donde from the reverse side of the metal -the bossing up the lines or patterns from the back; chasing is the part which is done from the front. But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front." (Dover, Fifth Revised Edition, 1971, page 113). Please take notice that Mayron was an englishmen who recived the designation of Technical Attaché in the Research Laboratory of the British Museum, and had this position between 1945 and 1963.

So, at least in England, the term "repousé" was used in it´s classical meaning (which is the same that I use), as the work made from the back exclusively. I was not wrong, after all.

Fernando, please excuse the disgression, but we were clarifying the nature of the work done to your beautiful piece.
All my best

Gonzalo

Sorry, i actually read this just a little bit differently. Clearly the source you site states: "But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front". Seeing that he wrote this at least 40 years ago and that definition was in common usage then it would seem that for at least a half century and perhaps more reprousse has referred to work done from either the front or back of the metal. That's the thing about languages. Meanings change over time. If we cling to the "classical" meanings of words we might end up having a hard time understanding each other. :)

It is not so, David, as A. G. Maisey clearly stated in a previous post that the meaning is actual, as the Oxford source points in this direction. I would better say that there is a "popular" use of the word, versus a more technical one. Besides, I don´t know how old is the souce Tim mentions. It could be as old as mine. I did not obviously used the term "classical" in the sense of anachronic, but "proper". By the way, I just checked The American College Dictionary: "Repoussé 1. (of a design) raised in relief by hammering on the reverse side 2. Oramented or made in this kind of raised work." Of course, it is an actual dictionary, and this meaning of the word is supported also by an authority in metalworking which I already quoted . But if you have some better understanding of silversmithing, or a better source to contribute with, please do it, as we need to go beyond personal interpretations. :)

:shrug: