How would you define this kris
 

A kris sepukal, berpamur, ganja iras
Decorated with a star and a crescent.
Is it a paror beras wutah-gedhagan ? Does it has the attribute "picit", because of the finger marks ?
The hulu (grip) is in fossilized elephant molar
The sampir is in light wood and unfortunately painted but the silver decoration is well done.
The selut is modern, a Melacca cup and is from Kota Bahru
Can anyone guess or analyse :
The origin ?
The name of the pamor ?
The reason for the change of colour in the blade (close to the crescent/star)?
Possibly an age ? (<50 years ?)
Thanks a lot.
Regards
Michel :confused:

Hi Michel, interesting blade! I've had a change in colour similar to your blade and it's generally the border between hard and soft metal when the blade has been heat treated to harden and temper it, almost like a "hamon"

Heat treatment ?http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=51
 

Hi lemmythesmith,
A bit difficult to understand the strange position of this heat treatment ! No ?
Basically, I think you are right, the difference of colour is due to heat, but was it really a treatment to harden the metal or is it just an error ?
The forging is well done, look at the peksi, with its little hole and the heatwelding to the blade and the pamor, is not a simple one. I would love to be able to forge such a pamor .
I just do not understand that colour change.
Regards
Michel

I think it probably is the border between hard and soft metal, from what I've read on the forums(and it seems logical) the heat treatment is kept well away from the peksi which would be a weak point if made too hard. That pamor certainly is a nice one-grooves are cut with a file across the blade then the whole blade is flattened to bring the "veins" of metal in the bottom of the grooves to the surface. I'm currently building a patrem at the moment and thats how I got a similar pamor to your blade, the "stripes" look almost 3D in the right light. Cool!!!

Nginden
 

....Amost 3D ??
....absolute 3D !!

" This 'reflection' pattern, also a by product, precisely follows laddered grooves originally filed across the blade and reforged flat to create a pamor pattern with a series of adjacent concentric ellipses "
source :The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom

The Javanese call this Nginden

* beautiful to look at,... for over and over again; play with the light in the sun or candle
* hard to find

nice
gr
martin

Nginden
 

Hi Simatua,
Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ?
Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do.
When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil.

Lemmythesmith,
congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ?
I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor.

Thanks to both of your for your comments
Regards
Michel

"nginden" means "chatoyant"---like a cat's eye. It looks different depending on the angle of the light---you can see this clearly demonstrated in photo # 55,56.

Yes, Solyom names the pamor in photo #57 as a mlumah pamor, which means it has been constructed with the pamor layers in the same plane as the core, that is, laying down on the core, rather than standing up on the core. Your blade, Michel, has had the basic pamor constructed by a "miring" technique, whereby the pamor layers have been manipulated in the forging process so that they are standing at (more or less) right angles to the core of the blade.

Both the blade shown by Solyom as #57, and your blade have then had the grooves cut in the face of the forging before the forging has been forged out to shape.

Haryono Haryoguritno's book is written in Indonesian, not Javanese. Indonesian is not a particularly difficult language, and dictionaries are easily obtained. You will not be able to read the book just by using a dictionary, but you could understand sufficient to read the photo captions.

Sepukal
 

A nice keris with unique pamor indeed.

I reckon that this keris is called keris Beko by the Peninsular Malaysians and the Southern Thai, since this keris originated from those areas.

Sepukal in Malaysian / Thai context is actually a generic term for straight kerises, and it can be divided into several categories, i.e. the claw like Bugis Sepukal, the slim Pandai Saras Sepukal, the Tok Chu Sepukal, Charita Sepukal, Beko Sepukal etc.

Thank you Alan,
For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error.

If I understand you correctly, the pamor Mlumah is built parallel to the core and the pamor Miring is built perpendicular to the core. The miring technique requires a sizable pile of layers (as wide as the kris blade), sandwiching the core of the blade and that before being filed to give the waving aspect. Difficult to explain but I think that I get it.

Thank you PenangsangII,
for your translation of the word "sepukal" in Malaysia.
A keris "Beko" is new for me. Is it a Malaysian word? and what does it means ? ? What does it relate to ? The shape ?
Kind regards
Michel

Pamor
 

You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118.

Kind regards

Sejr

Michel, I am remarkably untalented in the area of language. I used to get marks as low as 9---out of 100---in my school French examinations. I would get that 9 for reading because my accent was apparently almost perfect, but all the rest of the language was a mystery to me. Later on I learnt to read French cycling magazines fairly well. What I needed was the motivation. I could see no use for wasting time on learning French, so I never gave it any time---until I decided I wanted to read the cycling magazines.

I had a similar experience when I started to learn Indonesian. I initially went to formal classes, language laboratories, etc, etc, etc. I got absolutely nowhere. So I designed my own program that involved extensive reading and writing in a vocabulary that was somewhat more adult than the brand of Indonesian taught in a classroom situation.This foundation was added to by live conversation when I was in Indonesia.

Believe me, it is not a difficult language to learn to a level where you can more or less understand a book, or carry on basic conversation.If all you need to do is read the captions in your book, you will handle that easily with the assistance of a dictionary.

Yes, your understanding of the difference between pamor mlumah and pamor miring is correct. The work involved in creating any pamor miring is multiples of that needed to create any pamor mlumah. Not only is the time and effort much greater to create pamor miring than it is to create pamor mlumah, but the level of skill required is also much greater.

Keris Beko
 

Greetings to all keris lovers,

Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics:
1) Less protruding aring (ganja)
2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade
3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal)
4) Overall mata / bilah is wider
5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only
6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt
7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani)

Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

Thanks you Alan,
You give me courage and motivation to go and purchase an Indonesian dictionary. So far I had downloaded an Indonesian-French dictionary on the web but have had very little success with it. The first word I wanted to understand was "antara" and I could not find any translation. I guess it means: "between" in the Title Keris Jawa, antara Mistic dan Nalar.
I will pursue my efforts with a good dictionary !

Thanks a lot PenangsangII,
for this very good description of the keris Beko. Many very interesting elements in your description. Your way of analyzing and "reading" a Keris, reminds me of Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain of Kota Bahru, he "read" kerisses as you can read a book, a thing one can do only with a very large keris culture.

Thanks again to both of you for sharing your culture about keris.

Given this description i am confused as to why this blade would definitely be called keris beko. It certainly wasn't made to be a fighting blade, it definitely has a contrasting pamor and i am not so sure that the blade is particularly wide. Dimensions of the blade would be helpful.
Given the finger imprints (picit, pecetan), the hole in the pesi and the gold crescent and star i would venture that this is a purely talismanic blade. The hole might imply that it was never meant to have such dress, but was instead meant to hang in an auspicious place in the home.
BTW, just to avoid confusion in the future i believe it would be more correct to define "aring" as the tail end of the gonjo, not the entire gonjo itself.
:)

Hi David,
Interesting remarks you are making !
First the facts :
the blade is 4 cm wide at the star/crescent decoration level and 2 cm before the the end of the blade.
The length is 31.5 cm, blade only without peksi.
A partial analysis:
1) A fighting keris ? The blade is 5mm thick in its center under the ganja iras. does it qualify for a description of a fighting keris ? A little thin for me.
I have 2 fighting keris (at least I consider them as such) their blades are 7.5 mm just below the ganja and their length is 31 and 31.5 cm but sturdy blades.
2)Dapur Jalak . There again my ignorance is a problem. Fom Keris Jawa antara Mistic dans Nalar, page 116, the dapur Jalak seems to describe a strait blade with a clear center edge. I do not understand exactly what PenangsangII meant, I had the intention to dig a bit in my books to learn.
3) the hole in the peksi was not meant to hang the blade. What was explained to me was that these holes were rare and were for royal family only and were generally on short keris pajang (< 45 cm), the ultimate finish was to have the hole at the end of a twisted peksi !
4) the others points of PenangsangII, are more or less respected:
short ganja, rounded tip, Wide mata not respected, witout contrasting pamor, (very interesting and correct. I do not see two metals),Jawa demam Patani style, the sheath saribulan or tebeng , (I do not know because again I do not know these Malay words and their meaning.)
At the time of the purchase I was living in East malaysia and had no camera, so this is the way I recorded my purchase.
Michel

Sorry to disagree with you here Michel, but while there might be some scenerio where a hole in the pesi is related to the royal family it is one i have never heard before. These holes are unusual, but i have seen many examples that definitely do not relate to royal ownership. This is not to imply that your keris wasn't meant for the royal family. Frankly i have no comment on that either way. But i personally own an old keris picit with a twisted pesi and a hole. It is a smaller keris than yours and it is my understanding that the hole was intended to hang the keris by. It was not owned by any kraton member AFAIK. :-)

hmmm....you don't? I see more than one metal here. :shrug: I believe that if you stained this keris with warangan that it might become clearer to you. ;) :)

BTW, very nice sketch. You have some artistic talent. :)

Bahasa (Indonesian) is close to Malaysian language. One language family, but have some differences in vocabulary, and also different "accent" in expressing the words in oral practice. (In analogy, maybe like the Swedish and Danish language). Many Malaysian words derived from English words, but Indonesian words are more influenced by Dutch words.

Indonesian grammar is quite simple, much more simple than anglo or latin language family. Conjugation, declination like in Latin, or French, Spanish, is also unknown in Indonesian language.

Javanese -- just one of hundreds of local slangs in Indonesia. An it is much more complicated than Indonesian. West Java, speak "sundanese" which is much much diferrent with "javanese" in Central Java. Some Central javanese even don't understand sundanese. So, usually they speak "Indonesian". Indonesian languange, is commonly spoken in the entire of Indonesia...

I hope this tiny information will help you...

Ganjawulung

Hole in the Peksi
 

Hi David,
I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family.
I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation.
The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ?
Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ?
Regards
Michel

Indonesian
 

Thank you Ganjawulung,
for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese.
In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance !
But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary !
Cheers
Michel

dear Kerislovers,

Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know:

Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides.

Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!!

warm regards,
Usmen

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris. :)

Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly.

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?

Sorry for the confusion everyone, and I think I need to further elaborate.

About the fighting keris statement, I said it was USUALLY, but not always. Even then, I think the keris is worthy enough for fighting. In Malay martial minds, keris is not to be clashed with or used to parry another weapon, even another keris. So, the fact that it only has 5 mm in thickness does not really matter.

The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris.

Maybe the dapor jalak description is not the right choice of terminology for a Malay / Thai keris. If you look more closely, the middle section of the blade is a little wider compared to significant tapering from the base to the tip of say, a Bugis Sepukal, but not as wide to qualify as dapor jalak. Quite hard to explain, and I am sometimes confused myself :o

And Michel, Nik Rashidin is in a league of his own. I am just a simple collector of Malay / Indonesian weapons who started the hobby just couples of years ago.....

I am not sure how you can tell this from pictures of a blade that is obvious out of stain. I have my doubts that this would turn out to be pamor sanak after a warangan treatment.
As for whether this keris would be "worthy enough for fighting", that simply is not the issue. Any semi-sharp and pointy piece of metal could be a useful martial aid in a pinch. But this "weapon" was obviously designed to be talismanic, not martial as can be seen by it's picit (pejetan) features.
Michel, i have been wondering, does the blade have a tight fit in the sheath or has it been adapted for this blade?

David, I agree with you that the keris is not designed for fighting, though to certain degree, is worthy enough.

In Malay keris culture, keris is a part of a complete dress and a (side) weapon. Having talismanic properties in the keris is a bonus ;)

Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine.

David,

It is hard to say whether this keris is Jawa origin or not. Perhaps, I still need to have a look from front and rear and if possible after stained.

Alan said that this keris is not a sombro. However, I think if it is finally not a sombro, the influence of sombro type is obvious. I hope this is not either sombro or Jawa origin. Why? Because it will be very interesting then, at least, now it can be used as an evidence of inter-relation amongst empu in south-east asia.

As Alan said, I also have a curiousity that the kind of steel of its pesi and its blade are different. It will be easier to know it after stained with arsenicum.

warm salam,

Usmen

I agree with Alan, this is not "sombro type keris",
Sombro type kerises are iras (one piece) type. And this is not. Things that people called "sombro type kerises" are usually very old and primitive. Almost no pamor or just "sanak" (not glitter). Please see these "sombro type" kerises (pictures) -- even they are probably made in different era. (Sorry, a little bit rusty. But someday, I'll clean them for you...). You may see the "spin" in the end of the pesi (tang) and also a hole or trace of hole in it.

The dhapur? Surely, this is a "brojol". The most simple dhapur in keris, with only one detail that shows the "gandhik" or front base of keris blade... The one with a hole in the gandhik, called "semar getak" or "semar betak" dhapur...

I agree with Alan too, about the stories on hole in sombro type kerises. In addition for the stories, some people in Java believed, that such "sombro type of kerises" were sold by Ni Mbok Sombro during the wandering (adventure) before becoming a well-known Pajajaran kingdom (West Java) empu. Ni Mbok Sombro, believed to sell these types of kerises in "pasar" (traditional markets, village market) as kitchen knives... This is just a peanut opinion, based on my simple knowledge on such kerises..

Ganjawulung

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

Maybe it is too imaginative. But at least your pembantu's finger will be safe. Just put the thumb in the gandhik, because not all the edge of the blade is sharp... Of course, put a wooden handle in the tang, before putting the thumb on the gandhik...

Ganjawulung

Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables?

They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down.

Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers.

Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

And what do you think about old "pangot"? Some pangot are from "budha" iron...

In which way?

Can you phrase the question to address a specific question?

You maybe able to cut meat with "pangot" with such way (one hand hold the handle of the blade, and the other hand in the back of the non-edge blade). Pangot is an old form of kind of knife.. And of course, you cannot do it the same way with the kind of "sombro" type, the type of simple "keris" in the pictures...

Ganja old mate, you've gone and lost me.

In case it slipped past you, I was being facetious. My fault, and I apologise. I thought my wife was the only person without a sense of humour.

I will now try to be serious, on this most unserious of subjects.

A pangot is a essentially a tool; two hundred years ago it was a carpenters' tool, but it did have other tool applications, and still does. It is enormously unsuitable for the preparation of food, both because of its blade geometry and its ergometric design---but it could be useful for slicing thin strips of beef or fish, if the blade were a little longer. I most sincerely doubt that a pangot, or any knife with the essential features of what we now know as a pangot was ever used by any woman in a kitchen, except in cases of emergency need.

I actually use a pangot quite a lot as a bench knife. There are some things that its design is very well suited to, but there are other things where it is close to useless. It is a specific tool design for specific tasks, and it handles these tasks well, but a general purpose, all angles, all directions design it is not.It most certainly is not suited to kitchen duties, especially in the hands of the average domestic cook, who wants an extension of her index finger that she can turn in all directions as she would her index finger.

In fact, for heavy cutting of food, or anything else where we cannot chop, any blade with a single edge can be used with the left hand forcing the blade down through the material, however, although this method can be used, and is used by many cooks, I think most will prefer a cleaver type blade if such a thing is available.I've seen a bendho used for this in Jawa, and a small machete and a hatchet used for it in Australia. Ultimately people tend to use the tool that will enable them to do a job with the least amount of effort.

Incidentally, a pangot is knife that has a curved profile with the edge on the outside curve; it has a longish handle and the blade comes to a fine point. From memory, I think it mostly shown in western references as a boyo knife, in Bali they call it a piso pemutik. Most pangots have a chisel grind, which severly limits directional use--- as I said, they are great for some things, for some other things they suck.Blade geometry is far from ideal for the type of cut we have been talking about .

Certainly true, but i am having a hard time seeing this blade as having originated on the Peninsula, despite the dress it wears. That is what i have been hinting at with my line of questioning. ;)
Keris with these features are generally not made to complete dress or act as a side arm. They're talismanic properties are not a bonus, they are it's purpose. I am not so sure that placing the blade in Malay dress changes any of that. :)
Also true about warangan. Though i didn't suggest Michel go this route himself, if this were mine i would choose that treatment. I merely pointed out that warangan could easily reveal the truth about this pamor. However, i would image that even a bit of lime would reveal without question that there is a contrasting pamor here, not pamor sanak. :)
Alan, your humor here has not gone unappreciated, but it can be a bit subtle at times. If you would make use of the emoticons you would increase your chances of everyone knowing when you are joking or being facetious. ;) :)

Sorry for being so late in answering but but I had and still have, two grandchildren around and that takes time and attention. There has been a surge of exchange on this thread that is amazing. I will try to answer in the right order

Raden Usman Djogja : I join 4 photos of what I understood you wanted.They cannot be sharp all the way. I do not see luks along that blade but very tiny waviness along the edge of the blade if you look at it with one eye and a very small angle from strait along the edge.
I cannot treat it with warangan, as it not available here. What I could do is a lime/lemon acid treatment, but that is not enough, to my experience, to clearly reveal a pamor even a "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk" !
Sorry Usman, but after pamor udan mas, I do not understand. I really have to follow Alan latest advice and purchase the right kind of dictionary !

Alan: I will follow your advice ( as usual !) and try to find the Echolls and Shadilly Dictionary . Thanks for this advice.
Yes the pesi has been added after the forging of the blade and for all practical purpose I do not understand why and how they forge the blade without a proper pesi to hold it while hammering it? May be the original holding piece, that was part of the blade, broke and they had to heat weld a new pesi ? Alan, you know much better than most , how would you handle such a blade.

PenangsangII Yes Nik Rashidin was one of a kind, but not all what he said had to be taken for word of gospel, for two reasons, when he spoke English he was not at ease and often could not find the right word and second, what I understood may not have been what he meant to say !


David The sheath has been added later, it is of poor craftsmanship and it does not fit well the blade. in particular where the crescent/star is situated.

PenangsangII You say :"Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine." I like that, as I cannot find warangan here. But theses two acids are not sufficient. My special advisor Nik Rashidin, gave me his formula without warangan and it worked on a Madura blade that I though without pamor but that finally had one.

At the end of this long discussion, I am a bit confuse about that keris.
In summary: it is a nice peninsular keris(Terengganu) , ganja iras, dapur brojol, pamor mlumah, forged for its talismanic properties with a little hole at the end of the pesi, (wall hanging or other reasons ')
Michel

Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape.

With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know.

With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal.

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English.

Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.

Wow...you guys are simply amazing, it's around 10.20 am here in Malaysia, and I have already learned so many things :) .

Thanks guys and cheers.

Thanks a lot, Alan,
In many times, and many occasions, I learned from being fault. From being inadequate. Forgive me too, for that. Of course, I must agree with you on the matter in the last post. Once again, thanks so much for your kind attention...

Ganjawulung