KERIS WITH IVORY HILT
 

HELLO!!
THIS IS MY LAST ADQUISITION, A BEAUTIFUL KERIS WITH IVORY HILT. THE SHETH IS INCOMPLETED BUT THE KERIS IS GOOD. I BOUGHT IT TO A SELLER TOLD ME IT WAS A AFRICAN KNIFE :D :D :D !! AND I PAID 90 DOLLARS :rolleyes: :rolleyes: !!
I HOPE YOU ENJOY WITH THE KERIS!!
THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION
CARLOS

Nice catch Carlos. The blade isn't extraordinary, but it is a good solid example of a gonjo iras blade with what is to my eye a rather attractive profile. Shame about the sheath, though it does look like those might actually be silver fittings. It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. But the hilt alone is worth way more than you paid for the whole thing so i would say you did well. Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade?

thanks
 

THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, I LOVE THE IVORY HILTS, THIS IS THE REASON I´M VERY HAPPY WITH THIS KERIS.
THE BLADE HAS 11.5 INCH.
REGARDS
CARLOS

Hi,

Judging from the blade form and hilt, I would associate it with Lampung, South Sumatra. As I hear from more senior collectors here in Singapore, the hilt has "Mickey Mouse ears"; It is quite a distinctive form. Most Minang Kabau kerises, which I would consider more Central Sumatra, are of the bahari form and seldom ganja iras. Non-bahari Minang kerises tend to look more Bugis than Javanese. South Sumatra kerises tend to have a more Javanese look to it. Like any generalisations, there would be exceptions to these assertions. :D

Yeah, I thought it looked a bit South Sumateraish too.

That type of blade seems to be associated with that part of the world more so than with other places.

Yep, i am sure you guys are probably right on this one. At least i was on the right island. ;) :)

The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces.

Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris.
On a Minangkabau's keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

On a Palembang keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra.

In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra.

As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me. :D

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic'). ;)

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values. :)

Thanks Shahrial. Adni's assessment is what i based my first guess on. :shrug:

This info on gonjo iras is very interesting to me. As you state, we have had this discussion before and i have never been quite satisfied with the answers. ;) If you have more information on the Malay mystical world view of these type of keris i would love to hear it. :)

More research...
 

Well, I'll let it rest. I'll suggest that more research be done to satisfy your interest in the topic of the Malay mystical world view. ;)

By the length of the blae and its form, it's a Bahari. It's quite rare for Bahari blades to come in ganja iras form, methinks.

Rahman, could you please explain why you would classify this blade form as bahari?

Here is a link to a thread that displays a rather extraordinary keris bahari:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001237.html
And i have attached another more standard example fro, Dominique's site. I don't see a similarity in form to the keris that started this thread. Am i missing something? :confused:

Sheath's crosspiece model...
 

For the missing crosspiece, it could be re-made. The shaft joint to the crosspiece portion is intact. (PM me if you couldn't get anyone to do it.)

It should look something like this.
(Picture courtesy of VVV).

Oops! That was a typo on my part. I had meant to write that it would be possible which is why i followed it up with "though matching and fitting everything might be difficult". :o Though come to think of it, it really wouldn't be anymore difficult than making a sheath from scratch. Not that it is ever an easy job. ;)

Sorry David for not replying earlier.

The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis.

It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though.

Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway?

blade
 

Hello rahma!!
Is 11.5 inch., if you need more pictures i can make more.
Thanks
Carlos

No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari.

Sorry!

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but i guess this is as good a place as any for these questions. Obviously i don't think this is a bahari either, but more for matters of form rather than length. But is 11.5" really much too long for a bahari? The one i linked to earlier in this thread is about 11" long. Adni has at least two on his site in the sold section that are 12" long. Here is a link to one: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...ory_2warna.htm
I have a anak alang that is just under 16", but i have also seen keris listed as anak alang as short as 12" or 13". Most of the full length panjangs i have seen are over 20".
So there appears to be a little bit of cross-over. Are some of these blades being mis-catagorized? How specific are these length limits? Could they be a bit different depending upon origin of the blade? Are there any other attribute other than length that distinguish a bahari from a anak alang from a full length panjang?

Basically the bahari, anak alang, alang, panjang are blade form of a similar class. The main difference is the length. A long bahari could be a short anak alang and a long anak alang could be a short panjang.:)

As far as classifications are concerned, there is no fixed length (contrary to my previous post of long ago). The thing about blades from these regions are, the moment you try to classify them, one suddenly pops up to 'defy' classification. :( The main reason I believe, may be due to te absence of standards to conform to, like the pakem of javanese kerises.

This blade form is not bahari class, imho. ;)

I don't image it is an anak alang either. ;)

As far as you know Shahrial (or anyone else :) ) is there any specifically different cultural importance to the three different blades in this class? Why would someone commission a bahari as opposed to an anak alang for instance. The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.

Nope it's not an anak alang either. :)

The anak alang term is commonly used in Peninsular Malaysia, lesser in Sumatra.
The bahari common in Sumatra than in Peninsular Malaysia. ;)

There are slight differences in material and other details from these two regions. Just compare a typical minangkabau bahari with a peninsular anak alang... (of course there are countless variation in between), what can you tell?

Above: A Peninsular Malay anak alang (courtesy of MAG).
Below: A Minangkabau bahari (courtesy of VVV).

As you can see, it's quite similar, with slight differences . :confused:

Interestingly my anak alang is believed to be from Sumatra.
:shrug: :)

Good for you ... If you don't mind, can we see some pictures. :cool: :)

Keris panjang, "executioner" keris purpose
 

David, what do you think is their main purpose? :)

Good question. :shrug: I have seen very little other than vague passing remarks about the panjang, mostly alluding to it's use as an execitioners keris. I am certain that indeed it has served this purpose, but i also wonder if that isn't just an incidental purpose of status level, if indeed these blades are held by those with the authority and "right" to execute. I would guess that signal to the societal "rank" of the keris holder might be its truer purpose. I am sure that there are many of these blades around that never took a life. :) Does anyone have any information on just what part of the populous owned this type of keris? :shrug:

Sorry, gang, let me just try to reframe this discussion so poor Carlos can have his answers ;)

My first impression looking at the full profile and a bit of the fittings in the photos made me feel it is a bahari. By saying it's too long to be a bahari does not mean that I think Carlos' blade is an anak alang either.

Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.

Another thing that I missed is the fairly deep picitan on Carlos' blade.

So, please, I withdraw all remarks about baharis and anak alangs in this thread.

thanks.

Hi Shahrial,

If you look carefully, you are seeing 2 stylistically similar but different hilt forms. The examples you have placed there have ears which don't flare out, but goes straight up the head. A "U" shape.

Carlos' keris hilt has ears that flare out. A "V" shape. Here's another example, though I apologize I only have the side view of it. This hilt is in Paul De Souza's collection. It is a wide "V" shape.

Another thing we can take note - the eyes are different. The minang hilts have more bulging eyes while the "lampung-style" hilts are more "se-daging" (flush with the form) defined by shallow lines.

The blade is not a bahari or an anak alang in my opinion. The greneng doesn't look appropriate. The gandik is too broad and high. The blade is too broad and flat.

Rahman, i think Carlos is getting plenty of answer inspite of our little side track into the world of bahari and anak alang. :)
There may be minor disagreements which might never resolve themselves completely, but i have found that to be the nature of most keris discussions. At least now we can all agree that his keris is not a bahari or anak alang. ;)
Interestingly, my anak alang does display a somewhat "tapering waist". :shrug:
Kai Wee, thanks for getting more specific about the diferences between Lumpung and Minang hilts in this form. I think these subtle differences are sometimes difficult to discern and i have a feeling that many of these hilts get misrepresented in books, auctions and websites. I am sure i have seen the ones with the more bulging eyes described as Lumpung and vice versa. Great research. :)

Kai Wee,

Good keen observation... :eek:. After a long hard look, I do agree.
Thanks for pointing it out. ;) Lampung it is then. :)

Agreed it is not. I find that the tikel alis is also different, a deep groove type.

Tapering waist...
 

Not necessarily so. The 'tapering waist' is a feature of bahari class (which includes anak alang and panjang). However there are exceptions. See the examples.
(courtesy of VVV)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...mp_j.sized.jpg
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...bahl.sized.jpg
(courtesy of BluErf)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...lade_whole.jpg

Imho, not necessarily so. Although based on your specimens on "The Bangkinang Brothers", yours seems so. ;)
An example of a Riau Anak Alang, (with the 'tapering waist').
(courtesy of Malay Art Gallery).
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...riau_perak.htm

To me it appears closest in dapur to jalak ngore, except of course that it is gonjo iras and that the greneng continue past the gonjo line onto the blade itself whereas i believe the greneng is only on the gonjo itself on jalak ngore.
But i am not sure that these specifically designated dapurs forms are held to outside Javanese spheres. :shrug:

Ditto that. For the greneng, it actually looks like a Jalak Ngoceh type. Possibly copying the javanese form, but locally manufactured in Sumatra. Just a thought...;)

Thanks Shahrial. I was unaware of the dapur Jalak Ngoceh. I would agree that this blade was made in Sumatra. I believed we have already discussed the Javanese court influence on Sumatran blade form before. :)

Yes, we have. :rolleyes:

Carlos,
More details about your piece. ;)
The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline.
The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade).
The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip.

The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures).

Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings. :)

See [ keris diagram ] for details.

THANKS!!
 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! I´M VERY HAPPY WITH ALL THE INFORMATION! MY ENGLISH ISN´T GOOD AND IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ME WRITE IN THE FORUM, BUT I ALWAYS TRY WRITE SOMETHING AND PUT MY PIECES IN THE FORUM.
THANKS AGAIN
CARLOS

QUOTE=Alam Shah]Yes, we have. :rolleyes:

Carlos,
More details about your piece. ;)
The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline.
The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade).
The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip.

The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures).

Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings. :)

See [ keris diagram ] for details.[/QUOTE]

G'day,

Just being pedantic I guess, but in your neck of the woods, the word 'ngoceh' must have a different meaning to that in indo. In indo it comes from the word 'oceh', meaning to gossip/chat. Thus 'Jalak Ngoceh' literally means 'Chattering Starling'.

Cheers.:)

Maybe you would like to recheck your Kamus Bahasa Indonesia (dictionary) or other references. I would like to know where you based your translation on? :confused: Perhaps an etymologist well-versed in Bahasa Indonesia could assist...

For me, I was basing on Bambang Harsrinuksmo's - Ensiklopedi Keris (Pg:200) and cross-referenced it with Haryono Haryoguritno's - Keris Jawa - antara Mistik dan Nalar (Pg:183). Their exact meaning in Bahasa Indonesia (in these two books) are, "Jalak Ngoceh = burung jalak yang berkicau". "Berkicau" translated to English would be "scattering". Unless both of them and myself are mistaken? :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:

Frankly i am not sure it matters all that much since this dapor bears no actual resemblence to either a "scattering" or a "chattering" starling. :)
It does seem to me that the names chosen for these dapors is more often somewhat arbritrary. :shrug:

Hi Alam Shah,

Yes, I agree with you: ngoceh = berkicau .... when specifically applied to things like birds. Generically, it is the equivalent of the English 'yakking' or 'chin-wagging'. BTW... berkicau = chirp(ing)
I stand by what I said. As to what I based my statement on: I have studied Bahasa in indo and (pardon me for blowing my own trumpet, but since you did ask) can trade grammar and colloquialism with the best of them. So I rarely need a 'kamus'.
BTW... in my understanding Jalak Ngoceh doesn't have a 'tikel alis'. Maybe you, or someone else, can clarify this.

Best regards.

Gee whiz Pangeran, I wish I was as clever as you are!

I use a dictionary all the time. I am a native English speaker, virtually all my work involves writing, and I find that I constantly need to refer to one dictionary or another, and then there's my thesaurus. I can't even survive without a dictionary in the language I've been using for the last 60 odd years.

Now, when I move into Indonesian and Javanese---goodness me! I've got so many dictionaries I just don't know where to start.I've never actually studied Indonesian, I've just learnt to use it. Pretty much the same as I learnt to use English.

Yeah, I can carry on a conversation in Indonesian, and I must admit that my Indonesian is pretty much as she is spoke by ordinary people in Solo. No problem with that. I can rip off a letter that will be easily understood. I use a mixture of Indonesian, Javanese and English every single day in conversation within my own family.
But when it comes to writing a formal letter to a government official, I check every second word with a dictionary.

Now lets just have a look at this word "ngoceh".

In Javanese it can actually come from two different words:- koceh, which means to splash about in water, or to splash money around, and can be extended into other meanings as well such as to smear. Colloquially it can be used to refer to babbling speech , where the speech is likened to somebody splashing words around without meaning, as one would splash water.

However, if "ngoceh" is considered to come from "oceh", it has a somewhat different meaning.Applied to birds it means to twitter or chirp, but applied to a person it means to talk too much.

Slight differences, but significant differences:- applied to a person, it can mean to talk nonsense, or it can mean to talk too much, and of course, the meaning depends on the specific context.

However,applied to a bird, it means to twitter, chirp, possibly even to warble , and a bird that talks can be referred to as an "oceh-ocehan".

Of course, in Indonesian, the words "oceh", and "koceh" have virtually the same meaning, the subtle differences that apply when the words are used in Javanese have disappeared when those words have come into Indonesian.In Indonesian, the idea of "empty chatter" applies to both words. One would not use "ngoceh" to refer to a Saturday afternoon yarn with a mate---not unless one wished to denigrate the content of the conversation.

When we look at keris terminology in Jawa, we need to look at the terms and words used from the Javanese perspective, not from the Indonesian language perspective. Thus, "Jalak Ngoceh" must be read as Javanese, not Indonesian.

In Javanese this term "Jalak Ngoceh" can only be understood as "chirping/twittering/warbling jalak". Or even "chattering", but the English word "chattering" is a word better applied to a human context, rather than a bird context, especially when we have words such as "chirping", and "twittering" available.

Regarding dapur names, I guess you need a rather poetic nature, and an other wordly imagination to relate many dapur names to the physical objects to which they refer. The actual features of any dapur can be interpreted differently according to the pakem that is being followed. Personally, I try to avoid as much as possible the use of dapur names, and prefer to describe a blade in terms of the features present.