Man with a dha ?
 

It looks like a dha to me. It is only attributed to the 19th century and "asian" by the Smithsonian. Let me know if you all also think this is Thai

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...thswordbig.jpg

Burma :)

From the dressing and the text, I would say Burma too. :)

Thanks to you both

Very interesting stuff. The text looks arabic to me. If it is, could one of our members translate it for us?

Any comments on the sword itself, guys? If presented by itself, I'd say it looked Siamese. :cool:

Oh, you are right. The text is more like Arabic :( not burmese one.

I agree with you that the blade has long upwarding hilt with small round pommel. They are somewhat similar to Siam's. But many dressing components (skirt, chinese shoes) just not right.

Hi Puff. I wonder if this drawing was made by an Arab artist (non-SEA, in any event). That would explain the writing and possible combination of Burmese dress with a Siamese sword.

Bump.

Anyone care to take a stab at translating the text? :o

Im sure that this is not arabic, as there are no arabic letters with triple dots beneath them. This is most likely farsi.

Thanks, Saqr. :)

Always welcome, Andrew ;)

I was thinking the sword looked Siamese also Andrew. But I had no idea on the outfit

I think it is depicting a Burman, though by whom it was drawn is another question. The length of the handle and shape of the pommel do suggest Thai (specifically, Rattanakosin Period), but the lacquered or dark wood scabbard with metal bands suggests more a Tai Shan style. Maybe the guy just happened to be holding a Thai daab he picked up after a battle?

The sword is fairly simplified and a bit stylized, so I think, overall, it is supposed to be a Burman and the sword handle is just artistic interpretation.

Here is my miniature (marionette) version of the same guy:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../280-mib22.jpg

May be from another country
 

To my opinion, although very curved on the illustration, the handle and scabbard look more Khmer/Cambodian in style to my eyes.

It's just a thought, an indication, of course I might be wrong.

Serge.

Don't know ...
 

I've refrained from responding to this thread for some time because I really have nothing definite to say. The dress of the warrior looks Burmese but the dha does not, at least not a typical Burmese sword that we associate with the 19th C.

The long curved handle suggests a Thai darb of roughly the 19th C. (Rattanakosin period), but Cambodian is also a possibility although it does not strike me as particularly Cambodian either given the apparent overall curvature of hilt and blade.

Perhaps there has been a certain amount of artistic license in depicting the man and his sword, or perhaps it was not painted from life but from a picture of the man and a sword inserted that happened to be around. Not the first time that occurred.

Enigmatic little portrait.

Ian.

Hi all,

Here's a similar military gown courtesy of the Myanmar Ministry of Culture

http://www.myanmar.com/Ministry/cult...mages/1096.jpg http://www.myanmar.com/Ministry/cult...mages/1092.jpg

Thats a great example of one thanks for posting this and welcome to the forum

Welcome to the forum. That is a very nice example, indeed. Would you happen to be Myanma yourself? We have sorely felt the lack of anyone who can translate Myanma text, and might have some knowledge or contacts for dha-related information.

Hi,

I can see why collecting dha can be addictive . I might start one day ,finances permitting . :D


Yes I am Bama ( culturally - ethnically a hotch potch ) and named after U Aung Zeya hence the username. I've grown up abroad so my ability to read even comtemporary Burmese is poor but my ability to read Pali is non existent . I'll try to help if I can with any translations.

Myanmar has always been the written name with Bama being the spoken form . ( except these days I hear lots of young people who grew up after the "change" of name who refer to themselves as Myanmar )

I can see the reasons for wanting a non-ethnocentric umbrella term like British but as the junta has no legitamacy people resent anything that they do .


That aside ...

Back to topic - The fighting dha lwe is often called Hnget Kyi Taung Dha ( meaning lit. Bird Large Feather Dha ) and one is owned by practically every family in rural areas and by many in the cities .

Many came out from under beds and floor boards during the 1988 uprisings.


Here's another drawing from Journal of a residence in the Burmham empire, and more particularly at the court of Amarapoorah 1821 showing a trooper - its that a horn or a dha ? Seems highly disproportioned if it's meant to be the latter .

http://dlxs.library.cornell.edu/t/te...00274.tifs.gif

OK. Myanmar is written, Bama is spoken. Thanks for the clarification. :) The Western literature is all over the place, using Burmese, Burman, Bama, Mramma, Mranma, Myanma, Myanmar, and on and on. :confused:

You mentioned Pali. I have often read that official documents and inscriptions on stele and pagoda were in Pali, but I had assumed that there was a different alphabet used. Is it the same as that used for Myanmar (kind of like Latin and English)?

Anyway, back to dha. Is a Hnget Kyi Taung Dha a particular form of dha lwe, or a different (more formal? more precise?) for the dha lwe? I never know how closely transliterations into English are, but on one dha of mine there is a dedication reading (in part) "Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Kaung Dha," and I can't figure out if that is all a name, part a title, or some combination. It makes me want to learn Burmese.

The dha in the picture you posted looks like an even more extreme stylization of the one in the picture at the top of the thread. It resembles a bit one appearing in an illustriation of Syme's "An Embassy to the Court of Ava." I have a scan somewhere, and I'll post it. It has the same radical flaring of the scabbard, and overall squat appearance. Who was the author of the reference you cited? I haven't come across it yet.

You can look forward to a lot of brain-picking from the "dha guys" here. ;) We have been starved for Burmese expertise.

You have a very illustrious namesake, by the way. :)

Pali uses its "host" country 's alphabet. It could be written in Thai, Lanna, Mon, Burma or even Sinhala alphabet. There 's a story that Siam, Srilanka and Burma monks talk Pali in an international Buddhist meeting for they could not understand others native language. :D

Ah, I see. That is very interesting. Again, sort of like Latin in the early Christian church, which permitted communication across native languages.

Hi Mark,

Burmese , Burman are obvious anglicisations of Bama


According to linguists ( I'm not one ) the old pronunciation of Myanmar was Mranmar . How old I'm not sure . This is based on cognates with other Tibeto-Burman languages in which words which the Bama pronounce as Y are pronounced with a R in the others .


The Rakhine ( pronounced Yakhaing by the Bama ) speak a dialect which maintains an older form . Essentially I can undertand 80-90% of Rakhine ( pronounce all your Ys as Rs and you have a different dialect :D )


As far as I know the long fighting dha ( as opposed to utilitarian wood cutting dha ) has always been known colloquially as Hgnet Kyi daung . Not sure if there would have any differentiation during the times of the Burmese kings .

"Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Kaung " is a name ( of sorts ) . It's actually full of honorifics so is likely to be a title of a nobleman rather than his actual name .


The book the picture is from is :

http://dlxs.library.cornell.edu/t/te...00009.tifs.gif

I don't think it's available to purchase but you can read some pages from this site :

http://dlxs.library.cornell.edu/cgi/...w=image;seq=30


Hope this helps

Yes, I have heard of Hiram Cox (he was Symes' successor as envoy to the Court of Ava - moved to Amarapura at the time of his visit). I missed his book on the Cornell site. I love that site. :)

I've done some research and indeed Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung is a title of a prince .

Thado means valour
Thiri means splendour ( same as Siri in Thai and Sri in Sri Lanka )

Both the above are Burmanised Pali words . I believe Thado Min refers to a senior prince : one of 18 allowed during the last dynasty of Konbaung.


Min means king / ruler
Hla means fair/ beautiful
Ye means brave / daring


These are Burmese words.

Not sure about Khaung ( can you show me a scan so that I can see which intonation is used ? )

Wow. That could mean one of two things, either I have the dha of a very important man, or the inscription is an "embellishment." Given that the blade itself bears a more recent date, and that the plaque with the "Thado Thiri" inscription is affixed to the scabbard, I am leaning toward the second possibility, frankly. My web site seems to be down, but I will pull a photo of the inscription from my hard drive and post it later. One thing I noticed yesterday is that the words "Maung Ba" clearly are inscribed (more fluid in form), while the letters of the "Thado Thiri" dedication appear to be stamped in. More evidence of a later embellishment, perhaps.

Here are the two dated texts, the first on the blade, the second on the scabbard.

3 , Than Ku hta-na paing _ Kyone Kyone Kya ywa _ Thu-gyi _ Maung Kyi Nyo ko _ 1919 khu hnit a twin ya za _ wat bet ko ku nyi saung ywet tha hpwint suu pay the


Than Ku district _ Kyone Kyone Kya village _ Head _ Maung Kyi Nyo _ 1919 during the year _ for helping against ? attack ??_ given this prize / award

" This award is presented to Maung Kyi Nyo the village head of Kyone Kyone Kya village in Than Ku district in the year 1919 for helping against ? attack "




Thado Thadi / Thiri Min Hla Ye khaung let thone saung dha _ 1160 khu hnit


The sword that is always worn / used by Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung _ in the year 1160

I think Ye Khaung is the name part with Thado Thiri Min Hla being the title .

Isn't that from Cole Porter? "Oh, you beautiful Dha, You great big beautiful Dha!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist, the Pun fairy bit me.... :D

lol :D

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...ianCostume.jpg

Eight Men in Indian and Burmese Costume, 19th century
India (Delhi)
Opaque watercolor, ink, and gold on paper; 10 x 15 1/2 in. (25.4 x 39.4 cm)
Gift of Dr. Julius Hoffman, 1909 (09.227.1)

Courtesy of the The Metropolitan Museum of Art.



The middle three are wearing Burmese clothes but are painted with 'Indian' looking faces . Does anyone notice the extreme similarity between the middle chap and the original picture we've been discussing : clothes and dha . Almost carbon copy perhaps ( who copied who ? )

Also I wonder if these were actually posed or from memory as the uniform is mismatched . During the monarchy there were strict rules about dress code. They are all wearing the incorrect head gear : the middle chap's hat should rightly belong on the head of the chap to his Lt ( our Rt ) . He should be wearing a military helmet as should the other chap .

Very interesting. Perhaps the artist was going by a set of costumes themselves, rather than painting actual people posed wearing them. That could account for the mis-matched head gear. It really could almost be the same dha the middle man is holding.

There was a huge indian influence in burma also so this could be part of what inspired this
Control of Assam, Manipur, Arakan and the Tennasserim was granted to Calcutta after the first Anglo-Burmese war,

After the second Anglo-Burmese war (1852-53) Britain annexed Lower Burma and made it a province of India.

In "AN AUSTRALIAN IN CHINA
BEING THE NARRATIVE OF A QUIET JOURNEY ACROSS CHINA TO BURMA"
BY
GEORGE ERNEST MORRISON, 1902

he says
"There is a wonderful mixture of types in Bhamo. Nowhere in the world, not even in Macao, is there a greater intermingling of races. Here live in cheerful promiscuity Britishers and Chinese, Shans and Kachins, Sikhs and Madrasis, Punjabis, Arabs, German Jews and French adventurers, American missionaries and Japanese ladies."

Wikipedia said this ( and yes I always look on that source as being of mixed use )
"British Rangoon was heavily populated by Burmese Indians in British colonial times constituting 53% in Rangoon alone at its peak (c. 1930). The Burmese dubbed the city kala myo (Indian town) and even the Bamar and the Chinese residents of Yangon learnt to speak Hindi."

In a tread elsewhere on an Indian sword carried by a burmese Ian said
"There is no doubt that in the early 19th C. the Burmese viewed neighboring areas of India as their sovereign territory, extending as far as Assam. "

Couldn't all this be why we see this mix in the picture ?

It explains why we have this picture but not the fanciful and unlikely mingling of dress elements .


These uniforms disappeared with the monarchy. More likely is that this is a representation of a Burmese diplomatic mission to neighbouring India .

My intial thinking was that there would be a mixing of clothing styles but I keep forgetting sumptuary laws. You and Mark are far better to address that. As to the similarities to the first picture there are clear enough I would not be surprised if they had been done by the same person though they ended different collections here ( One at the Met the other at the Smithsonian )

Dha at Ashoka Arts


I think we all seem to be agreed that the dha looks Thai but the man is Burmese . What do you guys think about the provenance of this sword which does look remarkably similar to the one in the picture . Interestingly I think it was initially advertised as a Thai darb.

I think the Ashoka sword is Thai. The handle/blade ratio, blade shape and engraving and handle decoration scream Thai to me. Perhaps Stefan will comment. :shrug:

Yeah, I think Stefan has the attribution wrong on this one, though I notice that he has included one of the pictures of Burmese-Man-With-Thai-Daab that we have been discussing. Its interesting that there is a similar mis-match in two separate paintings, which evidently are contemporaneous. If it were not for the different headware I would have thought one was directly copied the other.

Thai style darb ...
 

Agree with the sentiments that Stefan has a Thai sword on his site at that URL. The pictures of men in Burmese attire carrying similar style swords are inconclusive with respect to the origins of this style of sword. We know that imitation of styles among the various Burmese and Thai groups was common. Morevoer, "artistic license" may be in play here, with the artist having little understanding of the swords attributable to the various ethnic and national groups (although I think that is unlikely for an indigenous artist -- whereas a foreign artist could easily make such a mistake, especially if painting in his studio remote from the areas of interest).

The long handle to blade lengths are certainly typical of some Thai swords, notably among those in the north of the country and extending into mountainous areas of what is now Laos and Vietnam. Long handled swords are also said to have been used by the Thai cavalry in the 18th and 19th C.

I know of no reliably documented Burmese sword that has this extreme handle length. I would like to be corrected on these views by our resident Burmese and Thai nationals if they have evidence to the contrary.

Ian.