eBay "liquidated" my antique blade!
 

Hi all, it turns out I made a rookie error by allowing an item (antique keris) I purchased on eBay from the US to be sent to me in Australia using the ebay international shipping service. It didn't even make it out of the US; it was en route to me via DHL when it got to the Melrose Park facility in Illinois, after which the "Item [was] liquidated".

The seller was very helpful and did their best to liaise with eBay customer service, but to no avail; in the end we were both fully refunded, but from what I can gather, the whereabouts of the keris itself remain unknown to eBay.

According to eBay, the item may have been "liquidated" because US customs authority deemed it illegal to import weapons into Australia.

Does anyone have any advice/insight they can share?

What would have happened to the keris? Is there any chance of ever getting it? It is horrifying to think US customs would have actually destroyed it, as the term "liquidated" seems to imply.

Much appreciated

Sorry to hear this story. I would no longer import large blades into the UK these dsys just to risky with custom and the laws here. Gone are the days of free trade and customs union which we had in the EU. Life was so much richer and simple then.

.

In Australia knife import laws depend on both Australian federal law and state law, in NSW there is no real problem at all, although individual uneducated officers can sometimes cause difficulty, but in some other states problems can legitimately occur. I do not know the Queensland state knife laws, but it is certain that some knives are restricted & some knives are outright banned. Keris do not fall into either category.

The first thing that needs to be done for safe import into Australia is to be able to satisfy the relevant state laws in respect of the police test --- genuine reason, hobby, collector, whatever --- then you need to obtain a B709B & a B709 --- forms that permit import & possession, usually from the Firearms Registry, these days available online.

Try searching "Queensland Knife Law:- importing knives into Queensland Australia". Betcha AI comes up with a pretty good response.

Its really just a process to be worked through, no big deal at all. But I'll bet the enlightened officials in Illinois do not have any idea that such a process even exists.

This one was also confiscated by this weird Global-Shipping-Program: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=minasbad
When I am interested in something from ebay US sellers I always make sure that the seller don't use this system but in the meanwhile nearly all use this system, so ebay US is out of the game for me. Germany doesn't have any restrictions when it comes to swords, whether they are antique or not but these people seem to think differently. I have no clue what they are doing with the confiscicated blades!
I noticed that when the words "sword" or "dagger" is used in the description it's impossible to ship it with the GSP but when it is described as "knife" it is ok for them, for example I received this Thai knife: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Thai without any problems with the GSP.

This is now the fourth or fifth example I know of when edged weapons being shipped from the U.S. have (according to eBay) been confiscated by U.S. Customs. The legal basis for such confiscation has not been disclosed by Customs or eBay. This has never occurred for any other auction items that I have had shipped from the U.S., nor for any direct sales by individuals in the U.S. It is unique, as best I know, to eBay's Global Shipping Plan.

EBay has been remarkably unhelpful and uninformative about their Global Shipping Program's policies with regard to shipping edged weapons.

If thinking of buying an edged weapon on eBay I always contact the seller and ask them not to use the eBay Global Shipping option. This means revising their listing. Some are willing to do this, others will not. Some of those who will not say they trust eBay to protect their interests. Having dealt with eBay for more than 30 years, I can only say that trusting eBay is asking for trouble.

If you happen to be an eBay seller and want to sell edged weapons to customers overseas be very suspicious of using the Global Shipping Program the eBay wants you to use. For me, the cheapest and best option to ship overseas is to use Australia Post. From the U.S., the cheapest and best option to ship to Australia is via the US Postal Service. I've never had an issue with the USPS.

Ian.

Keep your eye on Ebay, there are companies that sell these confiscated items on Ebay using the original photos and description and price structure - it may pop up again.

Hi Jeff,

I never noticed this, I know that you can't post it here at the forum regarding the forum rules but can you show me examples by pm?

Regards,
Detlef

I always ask myself from where they take their information! :rolleyes: For example there are only a few exceptions what's not allowed to import to Germany (for example balisongs and push daggers) but had this problem with this weird GSP several times, for example with this minasbad which got confiscated and a Luzon bolo I bought not long ago from an US seller, both items would have passed German customs without any problems. :eek:
They seem to be very uninformed!!

I am also curious about this.

Thanks,
Leif

It has been quite some time since I imported anything from the US but I NEVER would use the Global Shipping offered by Ebay as I found it too expensive and also unreliable. I always used USPS which never gave me any trouble and was always cheaper. Some sellers who use Global will not send by any other means but it is always a good idea to ask if they will send USPS.
Stu

Me three.

me too
 

Ive sold two fijian clubs on ebay from the uk to the us , both through the global shipping program and both were seized , both me and the buyer were refunded , and then three weeks later they turned up on ebay again ,and still had my original photos and description , after reporting this numerous times to ebay nothing happened and eventually they sold ,
they were expensive clubs too ,one sold for £2400 ,
Ive never trusted ebay since ,
scandals

I had a Sumatran keris disappear on eBay 2 years ago. The blade was ok. The silver sleave on the sheath was beat up, but I really wanted the north Java hilt! I'm still sad and pissed! They sent me a WWII German bayonet instead and tried to claim ignorance. Scandals!

G'day Adam,
I am a fellow Queenslander. I don't know how you were even able to complete the purchase on Ebay. Buying anything even vaguely related to edged weapons (even books) on Ebay is now a nightmare and requires lots of back and forth with the seller to remove any mention of the word knife/sword. It has been a few years now, but the last three times I bought swords from the US they never made it out of the country. I have given up buying anything from the US now.
Cheers,
Bryce

Hello Tom,

Who was the seller when the confiscicated clubs turned up again? And was international shipping offered?

Regards,
Detlef

Do we have any indication that the sellers actually had the seized items? Or did they just copy the ad in an attempt to scam buyers?

I've been a bit puzzled by the eBay use of the word "liquidated".

In financial & asset management terms it means converting an item into cash --- more to it than this, but we're not at a seminar here.

So I decided to ask AI what eBay means when they use the term "liquidated".

Here is the answer:-

When eBay’s Global Shipping Program (GSP) or International Shipping advises an item has been "liquidated," it means the item was deemed ineligible for international transport at their hub, and rather than being returned to you, it was seized and sent to a third party to be resold or destroyed. This typically occurs due to customs issues, unexpected restrictions, or logistics errors.
Key Aspects of "Liquidated" in GSP/International Shipping
• Item Disposal: Liquidated items are generally not returned to the seller. They are sold, recycled, or destroyed by the logistics provider (Pitney Bowes) that manages the hub.
• Failed Export/Import: Despite the item appearing legal to you, the hub may have identified a restriction, hazardous material designation (e.g., restricted materials, aerosols), or a logistical bottleneck, leading to rejection.
• Your Protection: If tracking confirms the item reached the Kentucky hub (or equivalent center), you are protected. eBay takes responsibility for the item from that point forward, often issuing a refund to the buyer without deducting the amount from you.
• Action Required: Monitor the case and keep the tracking proof showing the item was delivered to the hub. If the buyer contacts you, direct them to contact eBay Customer Support directly for a refund through the GSP program.
Essentially, the item was confiscated, and you should be covered for the sale amount if the tracking shows it arrived at the hub.


So it would seem that it is not a very good idea to trust eBay whether one is a buyer or a seller.

Personally, I never liked eBay much and never sold the type of things that this Forum is concerned with on eBay, nor did I buy from eBay. Ever.

I don't suppose any VS forumite here is an American lawyer or has a good understanding of US law around this sort of thing?

G'day Bryce, now that you mention it, I remember one time I was unable to purchase or bid on another edged weapon (again, a keris) on eBay from a seller in New South Wales; as with you, eBay would not allow me to complete the purchase. From memory, however, there was no issue of this kind with actually purchasing the US keris on eBay. I can't explain why, but I did acquire a US address through a freight forwarding service and updated my ebay account accordingly, so maybe that helped (although I used my Australian address as shipping address in that instance).

Adam, I have no knowledge of American law, in respect of this matter we are discussing, or in any other matter. However, I would put money on it that eBay is acting in accordance with agreed terms that give the shipper --- Pitney Bowes --- the legal right to dispose of any items that they consider to be unable to be imported into the destination country. It will be buried somewhere in the small print, you can bet on it. Effectively, when you signed up for the service you handed over all your rights to eBay/Pitney Bowes. Betcha.

Sorry, examples are old and gone but should be easy to pull this one if re-posted with a search string based on confiscated example.

Uk ebay will not let you bid on anything listed with the word weapon in it. Will not let bid on swords or some knives.

Thank you Jeff! For this Adam need to post the keris with description and some pics. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

G'day Detlef,

Here it is. Quite apart from the fact it is a wonderful old "Bugis/Malay" blade (Sumatran/Riau?) in excellent condition, it has an old paper label attached with the following inscription: "1809 Kriss Malais 490-".

Absolutely gutted to think US customs destroyed it, but I retain a (very) slim hope it might still be out there somewhere; in which case, I would greatly appreciate it if the VS forumites could keep an eye out for it.

With thanks, Adam

Adam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I very strongly suspect that we have ivory of one form or another as a component part of this keris?

If this is so, the decision to liquidate was probably based upon the ivory content rather than the weapon nature.

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

Dear Adam,

I have to say that you are either very naive and/or very uninformed! How could you possibly believe that you could import ivory (in this case, hippopotamus ivory) from one country (the USA) into another (Australia) without CITES papers?
If anyone can be held responsible for the possible destruction of this beautiful Malay Keris, then—unfortunately—it is you. Sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23029

Adam, in the case of your keris, it was probably inspected by PitneyBowes, the ivory component was identified and that was that. End of story.

However, once Customs gets involved the outcome can vary a lot, depending on country & the Customs officers concerned.

To ship ivory legally, most especially into the USA you can be faced with high expense for verification, state laws that ban everything that even looks like ivory, immense disregard for actual law, & more or less general arrogant & "I am the law" attitude. Then there is the inbuilt Catch 22.

I've looked at this import/export of ivory over a number of years --- like about 35 years --- and I have come to the opinion I will only sell ivory within Australia, & I do have quite a lot of very valuable ivory.

The USA position on ivory is so disastrous that an extremely well known researcher & international authority on the Javanese keris gave me his collection of ivory hilts because he was concerned that if he had given those hilts along with the rest of his collection, to the museum of his university, that eventually they would be destroyed.

When thinking about USA and ivory bans, or for that matter, bans on anything & the USA, it is perhaps a good idea to remember that products sourced from kangaroos are banned in at least California, I was advised by one of the leaders of this push to ban kangaroo leather & etc, that these bans were very necessary because the Australian Kangaroo was an endangered species.

This is the sort of people we are dealing with:- ignorance coupled with a total absence of logic & good top dressing of arrogance.

I am neither, Detlef, and you are not very polite; how can I arrange CITES papers for an object that, according to the seller's description, raises no issues CITES-wise.

This is just how things are, sad but we have to lump it. I would even be careful of importing items with bone handle are elements.

Thanks Tim.

The eBay keris was not from a collector, it was from an estate sale. From the perspective of the seller, the keris was a random object they clearly knew very little about. The brief description the seller provided contained no information about the raw material(s) comprising the hilt and buntut. Hence, there was no mention of any of the materials or components of the keris being organic parts of animals that would fall under CITES prohibitions. I do not understand how I can apply for a CITES certificate under these circumstances based on a couple of photos of an unexplained whitish-looking material in the eBay listing. They could have been plastic/resin replacement parts for all I know.

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

"I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory."

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

Yes really. When the material is completely unidentified, in fact when the seller's extremely sparse description of the item does not even mention or allude to the whitish-coloured material at all, what is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit through both the US and my home country?

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

It wasn't an apology, so there's nothing to accept.

I have a 19th century Moro kris with a replacement component made from plastic or resin of some kind - in any case, you read what I wrote before: for all I know, I thought the whitish-coloured material could be modern replacement parts.

If I had known what it was and I had all the information, I would have applied for the CITES permit(s).

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

The recriminations need to stop. Back to the topic!
 

The recriminations need to stop. Back to the topic!

I had this issue years ago with a dagger I bought/auctioned by a Swiss auction house, you need an export CITES paper and an import CITES paper, at this time the auction house has been very helpful.
Here what AI stated:

CITES documentation consists of mandatory permits and certificates required for the international import, export, or re-export of endangered animals and plants, including parts or products. These documents, regulated by a treaty, ensure trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable. The required paperwork is verified at customs and depends on the species' protection level.Key Aspects of CITES DocumentationPermit Types: Export permits, import permits, re-export certificates, and certificates of origin are the main documents.Appendices I, II, & III: The type of permit depends on which CITES appendix the species is listed under, with Appendix I requiring the strictest control.Documentation Required:Export Document: Valid copy of the permit from the exporting country.Import Permit: Necessary for Appendix I species, often requiring evidence of legal acquisition.Scientific Documentation: Legal acquisition certificates for scientific purposes.Live Animal Transport: Specific documentation regarding the housing and care of live animals during transport is often needed.Key Information & ProceduresIssuing Authorities: Permits are issued by the designated Management Authority in each country.EU Requirements: Within the EU, strict documentation is required for Annex A species, and import/export permits are needed for trade outside the EU.Verification: Customs officials at border inspection posts verify the documentation upon import or export.In-Transit Requirements: Shipments moving through a country still require a valid CITES document from the country of origin to the destination.For official information regarding documentation in Germany, the Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (BfN) provides detailed guidelines and forms.

It's an not easy procedure but I think that in your special case it's to late and you would need the help of the seller.

Regards,
Detlef

Forgot to mention what AI tells us under which regularmentations falling hippo ivory since I am pretty sure that the ivory components of the keris in question are made from:

Hippopotamus ivory (teeth and tusks) falls under CITES Appendix II.Listing: Included in Appendix II since 1995.Definition: Species in Appendix II are not necessarily threatened with extinction, but trade must be strictly regulated to avoid over-exploitation.Trade Rules: International trade is allowed, but it requires the issuance of export permits, ensuring that the specimens were legally obtained and that the trade is not detrimental to the survival of the species.Status: A proposal in 2022 to uplist Hippopotamuses to Appendix I (prohibiting commercial trade) was not approved.