I know my Pappenheims...
 

...actually, I don't. Despite knowing one by sight, I realized my standard references had very little information on these. Even this esteemed forum only produced two threads when I searched for 'Pappenheim'. So, it was with very little knowledge that I took a chance and bid on a lot of swords that included this item identified as a "reproduction basket hilt sword".

So, after a long absence from this forum (I owe some of you responses for your helpful feedback to my now year-old last posts), I ask you good folks if you think it was worth the chance. I had only 3-4 poor pictures to go by in the description of the lot. Still, I could just make out a possible maker's name (C L E M E N) on the ricasso. The condition of the grip, the oxidation on the bars of the hilt, the piercing of the plate guard, the period correct pommel (as best I can tell)...tell me, did I get seduced by my own wishful thinking, or did I get a steal??

Wow! Shayde, I'm no expert, but everything looks legit to me! If it is Historismus, they did a bang-up job at softening the edges and placing the darker patina exactly where you would expect it. In any case, if it is a 19th c. knock-off, it's top notch. If real (which i suspect), you hit a home run, my friend! Now I'll step back and let the expects comment-

I think you did good!

Well, if this sword smith's intent was that of a deceiver, he would have better avoid to engrave that CLEMEN on the blade. For a newbie (like me) it is easier to suspect this is not the way CLEMENS STAM marked his blades than judge on the irreproachable technique this sword is made.
All this said by an ignaro, of course :o .
A member like Jasper Smith would naturally have no doubts about it.

Thanks for the feedback so far, chaps.
I agree that seeing a maker's stamp that didn't correspond to a known stamp gave me pause. There may be another mark on the opposite side of the ricaaso, but because the plate guard is still intact, it is harder to see.

I also realized I didn't post any pictures that provide scale. The tiles on the floor of the next picture are each 12"x12". The picture of the hilt in my hand shows the proportions (at 6'4", my hands are not very small).

Also, one more detail that may help - I thought there were areas of delamination in the bars of the guard. Specifically, those that make up the area surrounding where the missing plate guard would be. Upon closer inspection, I believe this is an intentional groove into which the plate would be secured. See the third picture. Thoughts? Does this correspond to actual period construction practice, or just well constructed recreation?

Hello , it has one guard plate and the knucklebow missing, but it is one hundred % Original and it is a popular model rapier to, so congratulations !

its obviously a stabbing blade , can you tell me the total length including the guard , it looks like the blade is a bit short. Despite the name on the ricasso the style and geometry of the blade looks Italian.

Thanks ulfberth!
The total length is 41.75"
The blade, from point to guard (excluding ricasso) is 34".
I'm also trying to make out the word on the other side of the ricasso. I think I see K E Y, or K E X, but there are more letters I can't yet decipher.

that means its is missing 6 to 9 inch of its length, can you take a picture of the other letters ?
The name or word is interesting but in this case it could be they were used as a quality label .
The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find ! Considering that many of them were restored at some point in time.

Excelent inputs Dirk; good to have you around :cool: .

If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance.
That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me.
Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight.

All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso.

Stay healthy, everyone!

Being a diamond shape blade and fairly wide for this type it will probably have improved the balance.
The balance should serve its function, in this case in full length if it was to use from horse back it should be just slightly top heavy. Pappenheimers with slender stabbing blades are not top heavy at all , some have wide blades made for slashing , these are mostly shorter and lean more forward in balance like a sabre, you should be able to feel its function . I found this to be the case in even the most rudimental munitions grade swords or rapiers and in some cases its just amazing how agile a big sword can feel.

Indeed. When made by and for those who knew how to wield them, even large sword could be quite agile.
I know Pappenheim rapiers are said to have originated in 1630, a strangely specific date. I'm sure they continued to be made beyond the end of the Thirty Year War, but is there any indication when this particular example was made? I feel like I saw somewhere that the rings below the plate guards indicate an earlier style, but I've no idea where I picked up the bit of info (I could have dreamt it!).

Whatever shortened it (a break?) the owner loved it enough to remove the left side guard plate, the least important one for a right-hander, to help restore the balance. Cool.

The guard plates are kept in place by a slit as you can see in the picture above pointed by the blue arrow.
A strong blow to the guard may deform it and the guard plate will fall out, this is why so many pappenheimer and walloons type's have missing or replaced plates. The blade is most vulnerable towards the tip where its the thinnest and more prone to be damaged or brake there. That is why intact length and completely original pappenheimers or all rapiers or swords for that matter are extremely rare , about 70 % is damaged and or restored . As for the date the first half of the 17th c , I can not date it by the smaller guard ring the pappenheimers can have many different small variations, however the type of blade used here reminds me of North Italy or South Germany.
kind regards
Ulfberth

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

Thanks for all the good information!

I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says.

This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation :)

Can you make it KEVELAER ?
There is a German town called Kevelaer ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevelaer
Could the inscription be a religious dedication ?

Nonsense, of course :o .

.

It looks like CLEMENS KEULLER on the ricasso , spelling was phonetic in this period and most people could not write.
We also know that the letter U was mostly engraved or struck as V.
So I think there is a good chance it is on one side " clemen(s)" and on the other side "keuller" CLEMENS KEULLER . Not all sword / rapier blades have markings, so you have this as a plus. ( from European makers of edged weapons by Staffan Kinman )

Bravo, Dirk; brilliant :cool: .

Well done! Thank you so much. this is exciting to have a piece by a known maker. :D
Thank you for providing resources to keep digging through. Like I said, this is proving to be fun

Much more when you bought as a reproduction ;)

AGREED!

So, that got me thinking. With this gem being part of a larger lot, I wonder if the other items at all match the item we've been discussing.

Below is a picture of the whole lot (acquired for less than the cost of 5 tanks of petrol - which if I work from home for 3 weeks due to COVID-19, I will come out ahead of the game). I'm particularly curious about the rapier blade and hilt, and the brass hilted small sword. These are the actual auction pictures.

I would love to see the lot , it would be amazing if they are all good pieces, but these things do happen
Perhaps you're on a lucky strike !

the first one is a 20th c decoration sword made after Tizona the sword of El Cid.
Than the magnificent Pappenheimer , after that im not sure it could be a freemason or other type of fraternity sword the design looks a bit like a French infantery officers sword of the 19th C , but its not that. The last one looks like an Original blade of a small sword.

The 'Tizona' on the top is surely decorative stuff.
All others look good ... to me.

Yes I agree , it might be interesting to find out more about the gilded sword this is 19th C but not my field.

here is a similar one it sold on guns international and was described as : Antique FRATERNAL Ceremonial SWORD

Well done, Dirk! That is very similar other than a few cosmetic embellishments.
As for the bare bade, it seems more rapier length, albeit with a missing tip. At least, it is longer that the 18th century smallsword I have in my collection. I haven't found any markings on it, but will let you know if I find any.

Thanks both!

Yes, it sure does. Can you tell us its length ... excluding the tang ?

Sure thing; it could well be from the XVII century.

Look hard; some times there are (rather faded) inscriptions on these.

This blade could (could) have been mounted on a cup hilt sword, although that grip wrapping style is not so usual seen ... i guess; as also this could have been from a different sord.

I still don't see any markings on the unmounted blade. There may be some faint etchings under the oxidation, but I don't think so.

I've attached some side-by-side pics of the blade next to other items for comparison. The bottom is a small sword with rococo-style hilt that this forum estimated to be from around 1760, or so. The top is larger than a small sword that the forum estimated to be from early 1800s.

The tiles are each 12"x12", so the unmounted blade measures about 3 feet, 4 inches long. Another inch, or two might be presumed to have existed before the tip broke. That said, there is no unsharpened riccaso, so I suspect that limits the type of hilts that would have once been mounted. The tang meets the shoulder of the blade, and then it is sharpened almost directly past that juncture.

the blade is indeed to long for a small sword, it could very well be from a transitional rapier circa 1640 like the one in the picture from the Wallace Collection.
This type has no real ricasso like your's , I have a similar one in my collection its also a lot longer than a small sword. How wide is the blade at the widest point ? my blade is 2,2 cm wide and 104 long .

Great pictures. The one from your collection is a beauty!

The blade is 0.75inches (1.9 cm) wide at the shoulder with a steady taper down to the missing tip.

The more I think about it, the Tizona might be my favorite piece, in a way. I know it gave me pause that the whole lot were reproductions. I suspect that is why the only other bidder bowed out when they did. So, I owe a debt of gratitude to that humble 'decoration'.

so this is prossibly the blade of a transitional rapier

Some guys have all the luck ;) :cool: :D .

I guess now I need to be on the lookout for a transitional guard and pommel :cool:
Seriously, if someone knows where to find them, please private message me.

I hope everyone is staying safe during their COVID lockdown. The question I asked in post #16 seems to have been lost as we moved on to discuss the name on the ricasso. Any insights into this treatment of the grip? I seem to see similar grip covering on other examples from the period and would love to know what it is, and if it might have been part of this weapon's functional life.

thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture.
It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life.
Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more.
Hope you are all staying well!
-Rob