Stiletto for comments ... please
 

What do you guys think of this one ?
Looks like it has a clear maker's mark
... A genuine item ? :o.

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It looks good to me. Hopefully others will chime in.

Awesome piece, Fernando! Looks like the real deal to me as well! Any numbers on the blade? (Gunner's piece?)-

Thank you for the kind words, Gentlemen.
No Mark, not a gunner's stiletto (AKA Fusetto).
I will have to find some lid to the mark.

Looking better ...
 

Amazing !
Be it because of the patina 'crust' or due to the unusual superficial marking depth, i did not see at first some of the gauge numbers still showing on the blade.
Considering that, as often written on the subject, these markings were often used to give a gunners look to the stiletto, as those as simple weapons were forbidden to carry by the authorities, one could think that in this specific case, those superficial numbers were intended to serve as a disguise ... my guess.
So, for what 'officially' counts, this stiletto is indeed a gunners fusetto, also called a centoventi, such was the name for they were popularly called, due to the numbers in the gauge going up to 120 (centoventi in Italian).
Given the work put on the dagger and the early style of the digits, i would dare to attribute its age to some time in 17th century.
But of course, i am ready to be corrected.


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looks kosher to me!
 

Parabens, Nando! Tão sorte!

So nice to see the real McCoy for a change--so many spurious ones at arms fairs and in collections.

I suppose you have Marcello Terenzi's informative intro to the subject in Robert Held (ed.) Arms and Armor Annual, Vol. I, pp 170-79: "Gunners' Daggers". I would recommend it to all readers of this post because the illustrations include three fakes and two broken-and-reshaped examples for comparative study purposes.

Awesome to see the real deal, my friend! I am green with envy! :cool:

Captain, you don't certainly mean :o ...


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I have Marcello Terenzi's Stiletto da Bombardiere, 1962, if anyone ever needs information from it. It's a short work but I suspect it's not particularly common so thought I'd mention it.

Obrigado Filipe,
If i do behave, would you send me the vital (two, three) pages by email ?
:o .

Thank you so much, MForde.
What should i understand as a short work ... something you could pick a couple pages from and send send them to me?
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt

Hi Fernando,
I have stiletto with the same maker's mark:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24775

Alex, may i suggest that the mark in your beautiful stiletto does not look the same as the one in mine.On the other hand, i wonder if yours in Gyngell's work, as one of the 16th. century
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It would be my pleasure.

Thanks Fernando,
Yes, the mark on my stiletto does look like Gyngell's work.

Hi Fernando,
I just found these in Dean Bashford's "Catalogue of European Daggers".

Thank you so much Alex,
Yes, those six pointed stars, specially the one on the #90 Cinquedea, "look" like it.

Hi Fernando,
You can download Dean Bashford's catalog for free, from Metropolitan Museum of Art site:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpub...unting_Swords#

I have downloaded it half hour ago ;).
Thank you for the hint, anyhow :cool: .

Alex, I would like to thank you for sharing this most valuable tip!!! I would not have realized that was possible, and honestly was not aware of this title.
I very much value all information I can find on markings, and cannot believe I missed this one!!!

This thread has been profoundly helpful on this topic, in addition to great insight into these fascinating stiletto daggers. The paper that Philip mentioned earlier in the 'gunners daggers' has always been a sort of mainstay on these, and other resources typically mention them but only in a cursory description. Mforde, thank you for the heads up on that other Italian publication as well.

Thank you for opening this thread and these examples Fernando.

Jim, You are welcome! Glad that I can help.

There is another good book that you can download from MET's site. It called: "Catalogue of European Court Swords and Hunting Swords".

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpub...Hunting_Swords

:)

There is nothing to thank for, Jim. It is always a pleasure to show my pieces and be contemplated with members comments; favorable or not, as it fits.

Alex, I caught that one as well when pulling up the site, absolutely excellent sources, again thank you.

Fernando, I know its not necessary, but wanted to express my appreciation. The best thing here is that one never stops learning, even 'novices' like me who have been in the game most of my life (at 74 thats a lot of time!).
Its the joy of learning FROM these weapons everyone shares that is the magic.

I have been digging into the mystique that involves this type of daggers, namely their name, their typology and their purpose.
Concerning their name, i am amazed to have found one more; stiletto, fusetto, centoventi ... and now regola; the last two obviously referring to the ‘scales’ marked between notches in the blade.
As typology (if i may call it so) it appears to descend from the famous misericordia.
The purpose; starting by their sharp point, we may select one or all of three uses, cleaning the cannon touch hole, piercing the gunpowder bags and plug the touch hole in case of retreat in battle.
And at last, the more controversial ; marked from 1 to 120 (apparently always 1-3-6-9-12-14-16-20-30-40-60-90-100-120), is often being conotated with the calibres measurement, probably as it looks like the immediate simple inferrement. But looking at assumptions made by those considered experts in the matter, this is rather improbable according to some and even stated as being something else by others.

From Daghe & Coltelli “Apparati per la tavola e la guerra nel Rinascimento europeo”
… other versions of the same dagger, reported notches on the blade ("stiletto centoventi") and it was said that it was also an instrument used by gunners to measure the calibres of the guns; but this interpretation, contested by many experts, for the disparity of the measurements and the arrangement of the same on the blade, left space also to another legend: being a weapon easily concealable and for this very often prohibited, that the excuse of professional use could be a valid reason for possession.

Or ...

From “Quaderni Friulani di Archeologia VII/1997 by FABRIZIO BRESSAN”
The shape of dagger is recognised in fusetto or centoventi, the style at one's disposal to the Veneti gunners used approximately from the middle of the XVII century to the whole Seven hundred; the weapon is distinguished for one characteristic staircase, in notched numbers from 1 to 120 (why the name) that, carved on one of the faces of blade they were representing a reminder of calibres (to note, not their "measure") used by artilleries of the then Serene Highness.


Having that said, and considering that, at the period, such concealable daggers were highly prohibited to carry around, as per abundant published material, we could gather that, the markings on the blade, were only a subterfuge to illude the law, by giving them a professional attribution; their actual utility not being the issue.

Pardon my ignorance, but where can I find some documentation that daggers were prohibited in Venice? My understanding is that up until early 18th century, swords and daggers could be openly carried by city state citizens.

For example, Cosimo Medici was described as "wearing a coat of mail under his jerkin, a sword and a dagger hanging from his belt, and with numerous small stiletti, with very sharp points, almost as fine as needles, stuck into the lining of his scabbard as into a needdle-case".

Maybe trying harder some references may be found ... just kidding ;).
For all we know, the prohibition of carrying a determined weapon, for its special specifity, is implicitely excluded from the right to carry weapons in general. We could perhaps take Spanish navajas, crossbows, or (cup hilted) swords with off mark blades, for pertinent examples...

A member from the previledged Medici family is hardly an example :rolleyes:; and the centoventi as such, appeared almost four centuries after he has gone to heaven. Maybe the prohibition of such concealable weapon was result of flourishing Cosimo's imitators; this assuming that, his fixation for wandering around with such arsenal, was a fact.

... And by the way; how is your Italian?
From Guida del raccoglitore e dell'amatore di Armi Antiche - 1900

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Thank you for your reply, Fernando. Cosmo Medici wondered about with such arsenal in early to mid-16th century, right when these "gunners' stiletti" appeared on the scene. I also take sources from early 20th century with a grain of salt, scholarship had moved on since then and many early theories about bearing arms in the early modern period were debunked

I will take your advise and look for references.

Obrigado

I assumed that not ALL weapons had the ban, just stilettos based on their concealability and assumed use as an 'assassin's weapon', much as switchblade knives were/are illegal in parts of the U.S.

What am i missing, batjka ?
MY COSMO existed 1389-1464, and the gunner's stiletto in a centoventi dress appeared by mid 1700 ... am i wrong ?

While gunners' stiletto did appear in the 17th century, stiletto as a weapon form came about much earlier, in the 15th century.

I would love to see actual city statutes that prohibit stiletti as "dangerous weapons". A lot of what we assume today is an invention of 19th century historians. Take Langes Messer, for example. It was long claimed that this weapon form became popular because it was a workaround statutes prohibiting citizens from wearing swords. So people started wearing "long knives" because they were "not a sword". We now know that it is a complete and utter nonsense. Burghers were not prohibited from wearing swords and if they were this technicality would not have helped them. A knife-type hilt construction came about due to guild regulations where knifemakers were able to get into a sword making business.

Yet the focus here would not be on the medieval weapon but on the 17th century gunners species, AKA fusetto/centoventi/regola, involved in pretended 'ilegal' conotations.

As said, searching hard, here and there, we find some data ... lose or compact.
Expecting that you get hold of a decent translating engine ...

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto

... fu considerato, nel corso dei secoli, quasi sempre come arma particolarmente insidiosa e, a fasi alterne, ne fu proibito il porto e, naturalmente, l'uso.
... Ancora oggi è considerato (come il pugnale) dalla legge italiana come "arma propria", la cui naturale designazione è cioè l'offesa alla persona, e il suo acquisto e detenzione richiedono una autorizzazione da parte della Questura di appartenenza e la successiva denuncia, al pari di qualsiasi arma da fuoco consentita.

Extracted from CATALOGO DELA ARMERIA REALE

... H. 110. — Fusétto (1) con lama triangolare lunga 0,450, larga 0,015, numerata da 1 a 120. Fornimento a croce di ferro forbito e manico affusolato di legno nero, con punte di ottone e di- schetti di avorio. (Arni. 15).
(1) Fusétto, arma insidiosa del genere dei pugnali, e della specie degli stiletti con i quali ha comuni le forme e le dimensioni. — Pugnali e fusetti senza foderi — 91 — . lnvent. Sale Monit. di X (1548), c. 10. — Dichiarando niuno possa tenervi ne Arcobugietti curti, ne Balestrini, ne fusetti, ne spade o pugnali fusellati, sotto la pena sopradetta della vita, ecc. — . Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),
Ardi. 0 Gonz ., Raccol. Bastia , iv, 89. Questi fusetti degli esempj sono gli ordinar j usati a quel tempo, ossia il vocabolo era sinonimo di stiletto. 11 nostro fusetto invece, numerato da 1 a 120, è quello dei Bombardieri veneti presso i quali ne incominciò Fuso nel secolo xvii e forse non prima del 1661, come si può giudicare dal seguente documento. — Noi Proueditori airArteglieria. Facciamo saper a tutti che il Strenuo Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, s'attroua descritto per Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri di questa Città è stato da noi...., eletto per Caporale della Compagnia di Bombardieri di questa città Per tale dunque sarà d’ogni Scolaro Bombardiere riconosciuto et obbedito; Commettemo però a tutti et cadauno pubblico Ministro che debba lasciargli liberamente portare in questa città il Stillo Sagomato giusta alla Parte dell’Eccelso Conseglio di Xci : 15 Lug.° 1661; ecc. Dato daH’Ecc. mo Magistrato all’Arteglierie li 10 settembre 1798 . Originale nel Museo Correr , Raccol. Cicogna , Ms. di n° 861. A Venezia, il popolo lo chiamava — Centoventi — dall’ultimo numero segnato sull’arma. Nel mio libro Doc. ined ., ecc., alla nota 377 (p. 421 e seg.), e in un opuscoletto dal titolo— Stiletti o fusetti , ecc. — Torino 1865, Tip. Cassone e Comp ., cercai escludere

As has been noted, it would take considerable research and probably some serious linguistic skills and resources to find 'hard copy' details on these presumed restrictions on weapons. It does seem that zealous writers on arms and armor in the 19th century created a labyrinth of lore and 'chestnuts' that have prevailed as accepted fact with weapons.

It is however, for me at least, a kind of driving force in looking further into these commonly held notions to learn more on the actual history of the weapons.

It seems that in the case of the 'gunners stiletto's' the case of the strange arcane graduations on the blades did come about in the 17th century, and that the distinct character of the extremely narrow blade defied any notable utility purpose. As such a blade was ideal and pragmatically pretty much restricted to one purpose obviously, and fear of assassins was understandably prevalent in these Italian states.

It does not seem that proscription of specific weapons would be issued in any sort of legal decree necessarily, and perhaps not formally. As with the case where the blade lengths on rapiers were restricted to specific length, or the wearing of swords entirely was restricted to persons of station, I cannot place actual worded decree …….but would find same interesting. While references allude to these restrictions, I have not seen cited material supporting any formal prohibition.

It may be that with the 'gunners stiletto' it was more a case of young men parading around with these purporting to be the highly regarded men who indeed manned the guns, therefore perhaps a matter of hubris rather than legal issue. The often indecipherable graduations on the blade 'looked' impressive, and would be impressive in such ploy.

Strictly a subjective suggestion pending others discovering documentation of ordinances outlawing these weapons, except of course, to the bonified gunners in the military service.

Yet it seems as not only a loose reference but an actual prohibition; a paragraph transcribed from a serious source and reporting to an early date, much before whatever mumbo jumbo may be written by dudes thirsty of fantasy.
If one cares to rehearse a rough translation (read interpretation) of this above pasted part, for one.

Dichiarando niuno possa tenervi ne Arcobugietti curti, ne Balestrini, ne fusetti, ne spade o pugnali fusellati, sotto la pena sopradetta della vita, ecc. — . Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),

declaring that no one can keep neither short haquebuts, nor small crossbows, or fusetti, or swords or daggers with a fusetto form, under the aforementioned penalty of life, etc. -. Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),

In this particular the 'legislator' contemplates not only the fusetti but those weapons easy to conceal and of lethal & incidious capacity.
Good enough for me :o .

Thank you Fernando, that was what I was looking for. So it would seem such proscriptions were officially present in the principality ruled by Gonzaga, how broad was the jurisdiction covered? It would seem this would add credibility to the use of faux graduated marks to legitimize the possession of fusetti.

The Gonzagas were dukes of Mantua, which is only a comuna of Lombardia. Even though this is not far from the Veneto and Vicenzo having married one Leonor de Medici from Florence in second nuptiails would be no more than a coincidence.
The transcription i have pasted from the exhaustive CATALOGO DELA ARMERIA REALE, was one tat i found easy to deal with, translations and all.
Perhaps a more substantial part in relation with the current issue is this one below, that again i tried hard to fine tune the translation. But i think you can discern from it what is at stake; as also i hope Batjka approves all these interpretations.

" Questi fusetti degli esempj sono gli ordinar j usati a quel tempo, ossia il vocabolo era sinonimo di stiletto. 11 nostro fusetto invece, numerato da 1 a 120, è quello dei Bombardieri veneti presso i quali ne incominciò Fuso nel secolo XVII e forse non prima del 1661, come si può giudicare dal seguente documento. — Noi Proueditori air Arteglieria. Facciamo saper a tutti che il Strenuo Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, s'attroua descritto per Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri di questa Città è stato da noi eletto per Caporale della Compagnia di Bombardieri di questa città Per tale dunque sarà d’ogni Scolaro Bombardiere riconosciuto et obbedito; Commettemo però a tutti et cadauno pubblico Ministro che debba lasciargli liberamente portare in questa città il Stillo Sagomato giusta alla Parte dell’Eccelso Conseglio di Xci * : 15 Lug.° 1661

" These fuses of the examples are the ordinaries used at that time, that is, the word was synonymous with stiletto. Our fuse, on the other hand, numbered from 1 to 120, is that of the Venetian bombers where Fuso began in the seventeenth century and perhaps not before 1661, as can be judged from the following document. - Us Proueditori AirArteglieria. Let us all know that the strenuous Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, has been described for Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri of this City was with us ...., elected for Corporal of the Bombardier Company of this city Therefore for every Bomber apprentice will be recognized and obeyed; However, we commit to everybody and every public minister that should let him freely carry in this city the Shaped Stillo right to the Part of the Eminent Council of Xci: 15th July 1661

* Could this be the one and only Councel of the Ten ?

Thanks very much Fernando, that was indeed, as I understand, the notorious Council of Ten (CX) in Venice. I looked back at notes from "Gunners Daggers" by Marcello Terenzi (Arms & Armor Annual, ed. Robert Held, 1973) that the gunners stiletto (also termed bombardiers daggers) were typically Venetian of 17th-18th c. The edict you kindly translated (of 1661) concerning a man named Antonio Spadone, was apparently last used in 1728, after which these stiletto seem to have ceased general use.

While it seems these were notably recognized as Venetian, Sir James Mann wrote on them in 1931 mentioning that they were known in Brescia from around 1570s with scales to measure bore and shot. The scale seems to measure 1 to 120 resulting in these measured examples termed 'un centoventi' meaning in Italian, 120. Mann, in Wallace Coll. (1962) shows three of these stilettos, primarily mid 17th c .
(all these notations were previously mentioned in Fernando's earlier posts but just reiterating here with review of the Terenzi article also prev. noted).

It seems there is consistent note to the use of these stilettos, with the distinct graduated scales, being used to 'spike' cannon touch holes.
A reference to these 'fusetti' being issued to cannoneers as a kind of badge of corps, which was apparently quite a honor. With such a status oriented weapon, it would seem highly regrettable and distasteful to use such a weapon in that manner. I suppose it would depend on the situation, but that such a weapon would be intended for such use seems odd, and the more pragmatic uses of measure and likely puncturing powder bags more probable. Some examples I have heard of had corrosion commensurate with the effects of powder noted.