North African dagger for identification
 

Hello members,

I've recently purchased a North African dagger, it remember slightly to the Algerian bou saadi or khodmi daggers but there are also differences. Could it be a Moroccan genoui? But the ones I've seen look also different. So what it is?
It's 11,75" long with a 6,5" blade.

Thank you in advance,
Detlef

For me is an algerian Bou Saadi. The genoui blades are longer and have a more symmetrical shape.

I agree its from Algeria but not Bou saidi but from Iflissen, a Kabyle tribe.
Please look at the tribal designs on your blade they are very close to the flyssa swords. They also have simple blond horn grips.
Overall your knife is from the so-called Bousaidi style and definitively Algerian.

Very khodmi-ish, tho the blade shape is less utility than Vendetta stylus style. Some Iflyssan saw a Corsican knife on line and made one in Bou-saadi. :)

Hello Séverin,

Thank you for comment! :) My first thought as well but the blade look somewhat different and the usual seen wire winding at the joint from handle and blade isn't present at this piece. Please compare with two khodmi from my collection.

Thank you very much Kubur! :) Do you have an age guess?

Regards,
Detlef

I've had very similar thoughts! ;) :D

Regards,
Detlef

Genoui is just a koummya with a straight blade.
Yours is a Khodmi.

Thank you Ariel! :)

Regards,
Detlef

Can I assume that this is as well a Khodmi from Iflissen similar to the one the thread started?

Last picture show it together with a Bou saidi.

Thank you in advance,
Detlef

Detlef,

The blade reminds me very much of a 19th C. Italian "vendetta dagger." Perhaps a copy of an Italian blade in Magrib fittings.

Ian.

Hi Ian,
Yes, the style is very similar like Kronckew mentioned in up already. But the blade engraving look very crude for a European blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Yes, and the fullers are not quite right also. I think it is a locally made imitation of an Italian dagger. Ian

The khodmi almost universally have the wire wrapping on the grip, unlike the 'vendetta style ones. They may be Bou Saadi made tho. the spines on khodmi often have a tiny step and notch on the spine at the tip. On some this is worn newer ones seen not to have them. Some khodmi with wood/horn gips have been sold in Europe as 'Medieval eating knives' :rolleyes:

As far I understand, the khodmi is inspected by the Vandetta dagger. :shrug:

I think that is valid for the Bou Saadi daggers but not for Khodmi when I understand Kubur correct (post #3). :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Hi

You have a North African pseudo pesh kabz.

;)

More seriously it's more a Moroccan janwi or genoui than a khodmi...

The grip is very similar to the shula and the size to the janwi.

I vote for Morocco.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24849

Hi Kubur,
Thank you very much! Like we see seems the variety great and the transitions fluent. I see a lot of resemblance to the one the thread started.
Any age guess?

Regards,
Detlef

I would strongly recommend the new book by Eric Claude on Moroccan and Algerian edged weapons.
Charles was kind enough to post its ordering information on the Swap Forum.

Yes, I've seen the threads about this book. Just have ordered Steel and Magic since it's about my main interest. When I would have enough money I would have many many more books! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest.
But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them!

One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar.
And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-)

What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened.

There are not very frequent examples of Persian khanjars with a very similar construction.
Anybody has an opinion whether it is just parallel development or a borrowed idea, and whether the local Moroccan moniker reflects it?

Yes, I value good books as well, I will think about! ;)

We know that you love this game!
Yes they say Hanzeer (khanjar).
And the Moroccan sword is a saif not a nimcha...

:D

that's because the jambiyah/koumiyyah/khanjarthrougout the arabic world is used with the point down and the inner curve as the main cutting surface, Most are fully double edged, and westerners and those not used to the old ways assume it's used like a short sabre/talwar.

See also this western sword dealer/teacher's take on this, and read the comments below, especially what id now the first,
"SamNam11
4 years ago
I'm a descendent of a nomad tribe from the Arabian peninsula. To use correctly, after the small penetration with the tip forward the holder makes an outward cut like with a kukri. So it never intended to make a full stab in that way of holding. Btw holding it upward with the tip backward was funny to see because in my culture is a sign of lacking the experience with this dagger :) ".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy9myTnFfUc

Thanks!
I knew it, but did not dig it out of my amphibious brain. Shame....
Lesson for me: information needs to be stored AND actively retrieved:-)
I forgot this rule at my own peril.
Will tattoo it in red on my frontal lobe .

I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general. Moroccan saifs are OK tho, I especially like the ones we call 'nimcha' even tho they aren't really. I have a 'cavalry nimcha' with a really long blade (Camel corps?) as an oxymoron; and a more piratey nimcha (short) one or two. One of those is guardless but has the std grip profile for one... Weird.

Moroccans are not lazy, Africans are not lazy, Arabs are not lazy.
English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

Be careful i was banned from this forum for less
just because I posted one item that i had on the swap forum...


:(

:D :D :D But I can confirm that also Polands not lazy! ;) The Germans like Poland workers. ;)

i Was just Joking. Time is money to a maker, if they do not need to perform an operation they won't, unless they can justify the expense. And I worked with a large number of Arabs, lived in nSaudi for 10+ years, `some were lazy, some were not. just like the rest of us. Had an assistant in Dhahran that was half Saudi, Half Moroccan, UK Cambridge Grad, smarter than most, and an all around great person and friend. His Mom was the moroccan one, very western, divorced from her Saudi husband and ruled the family. really sharp woman.

p.s.- Half my family came from areas that are now Poland, were Prussia and Austria Galetia back then. We were the German speaking part. The Polish plumbers and construction workers in the UK usually make the indigenous ones look less than industrious, especially the Union ones.

On top of that, Poland has an insane number of gorgeous women. Polish men are not lazy: they understandably try to stay home as much as possible. Can’t blame them:))))

Oh yeaaahhh...Especially in Bialystock and krakow...

:) :)

I was joking too.
More seriously for the koummiya I think your harsh stament is based on the fact that you saw only ugly koummiya from the 1900ties or later.
If you had in hand a nice koummiya from the mid 19th c you will change your mind.
By the way i never saw a koummiya before 1800...
The blades come like that it's not that they are sharpened or not. Ariel comparison with some Persian khanjar is very true.

I've always been partial to Blonde ladies...my fatal attraction.

The only koumiyyah I've owned had a decent thick blade but the grip was atrocious as was the overall balance - It was nail ndotted 1936 Algeria. Took an instant dislike to it.

Came across another example, I really like them! :D

Look like Libyan Bou Saadi Khodmi knives. They are cool, still made and used. Love mine.

Hello Wayne,

They are bigger and longer as a Bou Saadi and when I am not mistaken coming from Morocco.

Regards,
Detlef

well to inflict maximum damage in battle, one doesn't sharpen a blade...those wounds don't heal as easy as a sharp cut one and tend to be more deadly.
That's a lesson I learned from my late father from his WWII experience...

But also many swords in the American Civel War were not sharpened; to avoid the horses getting hurt....
Hence one finds small pieces broken out at the blade...

Comming back to my friends in the Magreb, the Khoumiyya was a very effective weapon in the Riff Wars as the Spanish found out or the French before them through the hands of Emir Abdelkader and his troops.
Excellent side weapons to the riffles and the combination of the high temperature with a hole isn't exactly nice and allowing a combatant to return to active service soon...

A sharp knife/dagger comes in handy as a "nice & sleazy" assassin's or revange act compared to a battlefield one

Confirmation of Algerian Bou-saadi Khodmi
 

Hi everyone, I'm new to the site, and only here because of that post :)
I'm an 35yr french blacksmith, with algerian descent, and I want to spread with you some of my knowledge, about crafts of my origins.

First of all, this is DEFINITELY an ALGERIAN knife (the first one), and especially from the region of Bou-Saada (what you call "bou-saadi", or "khodmi". Khodmi mean knife in arabic, and the word is used through all the country, so we call that kind "khodmi bou-saadi", that mean "knife of bousaada"). in that way, "bousaadi" dont defines a style, a shape, or a smithing method, but just, a region. As for the "flissa" (name given by french, to many swords made by the Iflissen in Algeria, but really different shapes, from the straight to the curved one, with or without guard). While a "katana" (I make nihontos :D) has a a lot a specific things to be called a katana, a "bousaadi", is just a knife made by a guy, in bousaada, and he probably dont call it like that :D... Well, let's try to see, what those knives are
(and sorry for my bad english).

Why algerian ?

- The EDGE : If you look closely to the cutting edge, you probably could guess how its done. It is by cold hamering the iron, or soft steel, that they get that kind of shape, like its done for a scythe blade made from iron. The reason, or the origin of that way of smithing, is because an iron with few carbon in that region, that allow that without craking, a method used from millenaries in that region for tools. With hard steel, that concave shape is made before quenching (contrary to other steel), or simply forgotten.

- Asymetric : both sides of a bousaadi arent similar. Because of what I've explained before, both sides are not the same. One, and usually, the same on every knife, is drawn with a line that will give the hamering zone for the cutting edge. The other side is putted on the anvil.

- Inlay : As for the things mentionned before, inlaying soft materials as copper, or a particular algerian alloy close to the brass, directly into the blade, is typically algerian. This was done on the flissas for centuries, and also for the bousaadi, even they are not all inlayed (but usually, flissas are).

Geometric design: That inlay (and the engraving) belong to the tradition of bousaada. That two, or three knot of "color" on the blade are usual on those "hight quality" blades. In another style, two or three little pit are made, and fill with "color", red, blue, or green. This is also visible on decorations knives from that city.

The handle : you can usually find two kind of handles on bousaadis. The first one is wooden or horn made, and have that particular wire of steel or copper to fix the blade. The second one, is made by fixing two pieces (usually horn) on the tang with two (or rarely 3 on a longer tang) rivet. this method is usually choosed for the bigger knives, or when the steel allow that (a lot of those knives were made with recycled steel, files, etc...). I have some models different, like one covered with steel plates, on the horn, but this is still a bousaadi. The one on this topic respond to the second cathegory

Hole on the handle: Another absolutely bousaadi things, is that hole on the handle, just after the fixation wire, or after the two rivets. There is a leather lace on the scabbard of those knives. And if, with the time, it is lost on the most of them, it was originally. What people think is a hand strap (fixed on a scabbard??? :confused:) is just a lace, to fix the blade IN the sheath, by passing it in the handle hole. For the details, you can find a hole made exacty as the japanese way for mekugi ana, I mean a conic shape. That gives the possibility to pass easily the lace by one side, and let it "block" by a hole little smaller on the other.
In that post, that hole was simply closed with a pin (that is smaller, than those holding the blade, if you look closely). There is two possible reason to that (because i've seen that before). First, the craftsman, or the algerian owner, just has a better scabbard, that hold the blade, or prabable, dont carry it. So he closed that hole, as we can do on a Tsuba, for the "kogai itsu ana". Or, probably an occidental collector that think the pin was lost.

Well, I've probably forgott things, but I think, and I hope, that I gave you more details about art from Algeria. A lot a things from that country are usually mistaken to be morrocan, or tunisian, because of practically no tourism in Algeria, but it's still the BIGGER country in Africa, and I hope I gave you a little taste of it :rolleyes:

Pictures from some of mines :

- Two decorations from bousaada, both are curved, and one made by copper, however, those are bousaadi knives, with the typical wire, and the color (see "inlay") "knots" on the swords and scabbard.

- A very old a unusual shape of bousaadi, with a horn handle covered with copper, but you can still find that hole for holdind the knife in the scabbard, and the concave shape of the cutting edge.

- A bousaadi, fixed with the lace

- Two bousaadi, the upper one is made from a softer steel than the other, that is made from an old file (you can see the stripes, and the triangular shape or the tang). The first one has been made by the technique i've mentionned, while the second one has a more regular shape. You can also see how the cutting edges are differently used by the time, and I dont think that the owner was the only reason :D (soft steel.. and very thin edge for the upper one).
You can also notice that way of forging, in the other side (inverted sorry, the soft steel is the down knife).

May the FORGE be with you :D:D:D

Hello Fennec,

Welcome to the forum! And great to receive a comment from a connoisseur of Algerian knives.
I really like these daggers, if the small ones or even the bigger ones.
I have some further questions for you.
1. You mention the hole in the handle, in the meanwhile I have acquired a forth example which I believe fits also in this category which doesn't have this hole. Would you agree that this dagger is also Algerian? (third and next pictures)
2. Do you think that the two daggers in the second picture are also Algerian?

Thank you very much!

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef, and thanks for your consideration, and the interest you show to Algerian crafts.

Yep, I think, with all consideration for my modest knowledge, that these are all algerian crafts, and not only algerian, but from Bou-saada, or may be inspired by the art of this region.

- For the first one, without hole (the last pictures), it belong to those big Bou-saadi (some calls the big ones "khodmi" and small ones "mouss", but in fact the two words means "knife"). I have recently seen one like this, without any hole, and it was a Bou-saadi (I will send you pictures privately because it's actually on sell). Even if there is no hole, you can notice that the two pins are, like others, before the middle of the handle (not a full tang on those knives).
- Is there any bevel on the second half part of the sword? On the back? Because this is another "signature" of some bou-saadi knives.
- Another significativ detail, is the scabbard. Bou-saadi Khodmi have traditionnaly those wooden scabbard, covered with leather, that is usually marked with some geometric design (cant see them). That thicker part, is another stripe of leather that is tired under the other, to keep it in place and make a loop for attachement.
(you can rarely find some scabbard covered with soft metal like brass, and engraved like for some rare flissa, in the ottoman style).
- Then, we can notice that line above the edge, that is probably due to the forging process describe before.

- For the two others, my opinion is the same. Also Bou-saadi khodmi. That visible hole is significativ. The two pins are before it, that prooves that the tang stop before the hole (if it is a third pin, after the hole, i have seen that before, like in one of my pictures, it is probably to keep the handle more "solid", if it is made from two different parts).
The swords are also typically algerian. You can notice that line of forging, and the two others fuller are also common on the big models, obviously to make it less heavy.

PS.. you really have amazing models there... not usual, and probably old. The most we can find in europe, were taken by military frenchmen during the colonisation of algeria. But the most are not in a good condition, due to the use (war... stabbing.. etc...). Those two ones were probably belong to a chief (caid) or someone like that. I'll make a trip to bou-saada soon I hope, I'll take more information, and probably take you a recent craft :D

Peace, Khaled.

Hi Khaled,

Thank you very much for your warm words and your further comments, highly appreciated! I really like my four examples, I think that three ones are antique and the one which started this thread is old to vintage.

And yes, the fourth example has a beveled edge for the full length on the front side and a small groove near the edge on the back side. (first two pics) The blade is very massive and shows some cross markings on the spine. (next two pics)
And you are also correct that they all have not a full tang. (next pics)

I await your pm for the link of the dagger which is for sale.

Kind regards,
Detlef