Pata sword with European blade
 

Hi,
I need your help.
I have this sword since few years now. This Indian pata has a nice blade.
I suspect this blade to be old and European. But i have no idea from where and when. I would appreciate any help.
Thanks
Kubur

Well.........just a thought: both Portuguese and British were there in the 17th century.

2 places to start.

Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

European blade
 

Hi,
I need your help.
I have this sword since few years now. This Indian pata has a nice blade.
I suspect this blade to be old and European. But i have no idea from where and when. I would appreciate any help.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21717
Thanks
Kubur

Don't pay much notice to what i say but, the decoration in the ricasso doesn't look European to me... at least not Portuguese :o.
Is it flexible ?

Hello Fernando,

May I know why are you asking?

I also have a similar Patah but with a different blade that is quite flexible (much more flexible than any of the other blades I have).

While I am by no means very knowledgeable on this subject, I agree with you that the decorations on the ricasso don't look European.

S.

I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century.

The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'.

The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce.

Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara.
While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism.

There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion.
I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers.

Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India.

Just my thoughts.

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

:shrug:

Kubur's blade is not very flexible (like Kubur in general)
:-)
Like Jim I can see some Maltese crosses... but guys you have to give me something...I can't believe that no one on this fabulous forum can trace the origin of this blade...
Thanks to all past and future

Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones).

I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian?

Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

:shrug:

Originally Posted by estcrh
If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower.

I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade.

As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples.

They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

That's where it was originally posted.
:)

Oh I see, thank you Jim. I was thinking that you was talking only about the one posted by Marius. And i have to admit that this blade has some strong similarities with kaskara. Maybe my photos are not good enough, but my blade has nothing to do with local African blades. Plus I never saw any good/ outstanding localy manufactured African blades... Do you really think that Indians were desperate enough to import bad African blades, I have some serious doubt... I take on board the possibility that europeans blades came to India via Africa, by Red sea trade or most likely by Indian ocean trade. I still hope to have other comments...

I agree with you here. I don't think your blade is of African origin because it is too big and too well made... BUT...
... it is quite possible that the engravings were of African origin, later added (although I am not so sure they cannot be of Indian origin).

Also with regards to my blade, it definitely is not plausible that a blade with such excellent mechanical properties (equivalent to modern highly alloyed spring steel) could have been forged anywhere in Africa.

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

EXACTLY!!!
I must point out that I did not mean to suggest that Indians were in any way desperate for blades. They were of course fully capable and skilled in producing excellent blades. The reason blades were brought in was due to the colonial circumstances, trade and innovative merchants. Blades which were imported from Europe sometimes including a few British ones here and there, were then used by local artisans in India in remounting local hilts.

These devices of the four petal flower type I have been desperately trying to convey are on African hilts and it seems blades, but I have to find the examples. Please disregard my suggestions on the cross pollination of European/African blades into India as that suggestion does not seem to meet the criteria here. Despite the fact that known African blades are known to have been found on Indian hilts, one cannot discount the possibility that creative arms dealers might have fashioned these. I have had the pata with kaskara type blade for over 40 years. Also in that time period as per Mr. Oakeshott, many kaskara blades were taken from their hilts in England (brought in from Sudanese campaigns) and put in sometimes authentic medieval guards.
I cannot imagine how some of these blades in England might have found their way to India! :)
Indeed hopefully someone with more knowledge will respond.

I would point out however that the bladesmiths in Africa should not be underestimated. In the latter 19th century and well into 20th, Sudanese artisans used steel from lorry springs and other stock in industrial lots in making blades and other arms components.

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

Thank you all for the reference! and the link!

Why not, but the decoration is going right under the rivets and the pata.

I see what you mean, like the motives on the Tabouka cross hilts / guards for example...
Please, see also the recent book of Kinman page 90, there is a blade with the same crosses/flowers and crenellations...Solingen end of 16th c.

Ah this is something logic, the British have all what they need to do fakes with original pieces from their colonial empires... and it will explain perfectly the pata guards with kaskara blades...

Thank you Jim for your thoughts!

My blade can definitely be of European origin as European bladesmiths definitely had the knowledge to produce blades with such properties.

But then, if the blade was made in Europe, for what type of sword was it made because it would be too thin and elastic for any type of European sword I know?! It would only be suitable for an Indian Pata, that employs a very particular fighting style where a very elastic blade is required.
:shrug:

PS: Here is a link to an older thread about a Pata with a blade very similar to mine, and apparently equally elastic:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

Silly questions
 

We can see that the decoration of Kubur's blade goes well into the bolsters. Could it be that the blade was dismounted to have the decoration made or was already decorated before mounting ?
The pronounced central fuller was alredy there from the beginning ... no doubt. Could it be that the side grooves were only made together with the ricasso decoration ?
Is it my impression or the Indian blades in patas are the ones that are flexible and not the European ones; starting by considering that European blades were made for 'normal' swords and not necessarily a product expressly developed for patas.
We hear in the grape vines that blades in patas are largely of European origin; couldn't this be a matter of fashion or acquired culture rather than a matter of necessity ... or quality ?

Exactly my point!

In the photo below, you can see how thin the blade is, which is very unlike any European blade I know.

The same goes for the Pata in the link I provided above. Thin, very elastic blade, most likely unsuitable for any other sword but specifically suited for the fighting style with the Pata, where ample circular blows are delivered, and where you don't want the blade to be stopped abruptly even when hitting a shield, as such an abrupt stop may throw you off-guard and even break your arm.

My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design.

The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry.

While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount.

And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths.

I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo).

Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

In which way do you mean?

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

Look in Kinman page 28, orb and cross, Germany middle of 16th c. could be used later...

Yes you are right to merge the threads. Thanks

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

Kubur,
One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

Pattern welded...
very flexible (namely suited exclusively for a Pata)...

I am convinced this would be a classic example of an Indian made blade attempting to imitate the European ones.
:cool:

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

I would retract my note earlier that these central fuller blades did not often appear on pata, as it would appear that they did, in the multitude of variations and possibilities with imported blades over such a long time.

The cross and orb mark is of course not a makers mark, but a device used in general motif of European blades, usually enclosing words or phrases etc. but later simply used singly on occasion in symbolic or quality sense.
On Jens' sword, it appears to terminate such an inscriptive panel now covered by the bolster. This corresponds to the period he describes and European.

While widely copied, usually by native artisans, the cross and orb was primarily German and N. European . It was used from 16th-18th c.

Kubur, good note from Staffan's excellent book!!!on the cross and orb, profusely used in many cases of wide range.
Also, excellent observation on p90 of Kinman, this Wirsberg blade has an inscribed panel which has what may be construed as such a floral device, however this 8 leaf example is what is often regarded as a 'paternoster' associated symbol in N. Europe (Netherlands) and on German blades for those markets. The 'crennelations' are compelling, and further suggestion of the kinds of motif from such blades being imitated by native artisans.

In Egerton (1884), numerous examples, mostly pata or other 'long' swords, (#57, 61,62,63) with the blades elaborated as 'very flexible' and European; elastic steel of European workmanship; and European with flexible steel.

Elgood (2004) describes on p,202
" Tory describes in 1612 how the India swords are very sharp but for want of skill in those that temper them, will break rather than bend . "
He notes the demand for European swords, and Shah Jehan preferring 'Alemaine' (German) blades, but these in the north was referring to shamshirs or sabres,

"...long 'FIRANGI' blades became a status symbol in the 17th c. and English swords which bow and become straight again sold at high prices. In the 1660s Thevenot remarks that the swords made by the Indians are very brittle and that good ones are brought from England'.

Here I would note that in a number of these cases, the blades described are notably curved and may refer to wootz shamshir blades, which if not properly produced with the key ore from sources in India containing the mineral impurities required for the nanostructure will indeed be brittle.
British impairment of the wootz industry in the 19th c. case in point.

The demand for imported blades seems quite well supported through the 16t through 19th century, and the 'English' provided blades were more often than not acquired by British merchants from Solingen sources and 'Alemain' not English.

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

Well said Marius.
I have been studying these weapons for far more years (decades) than I can really say, and still feel like a novice. I learn more each day, and it seems for every answer there are so many more questions.

Complex is a good word for this fascinating field of conundrums!
The only thing with reasonable consistency is hilts, which generally will hold in some degree to local regions or cultural spheres. Blades however, were transmitted far and wide as a trade commodity, and their movements could be interrupted or entirely rerouted in accord with the constant flux of geopolitical events, warfare, changes in trade agreements etc.

I know I have seen this four petal in square design in other cases in North African weapons, and so far only found notes suggesting the design as far as Tunisia and into Saharan regions. It is hard to say whether it corresponds to something European, but we know that various European marks were duplicated by native workers in Africa often in multiple or repeated forms and other configurations. The familiar 'dukari' (paired crescent moons) are examples of such variations of European marks.

As for these 'floral squares' being placed on an imported European blade in India, it is of course possible, but as far as I have seen, unlikely. As I have said though, that is only my thought at present and quite frankly I hope someone comes up with an example of these exact kind of squares on a European blade, or on another Indian blade, which will confirm otherwise.
For me it is never being right or wrong......just learning!

A bottle of shampoo!!!????? :) Forget the beer, get me a Drambuie and I'll bet I will see the peacocks!!