Food For Thought
 

What will you do ?

http://tinyurl.com/j8pqz

We, sword collectors, think that our acquisition of things sharp and pointy is a form of investment. Indeed, the prices went up and up for many years.
However, this article offers a sobering thought: if there are no buyers, there is no value.
Sword collection is more than just amassing used lottery tickers: it requires familiarity and appreciation of history in all its manifestations. The coming generations have not been educated the way we were (for better or for worse!) and history is not their forte. They grew up with the idea that there are "generations" of things(computers, tapes/DVDs, TVs etc, etc) and that with the advent of a new "generation", the earlier one becomes obsolete and needs to be discarded.
The idea of "obsolescence" is a death sentence of collecting!
Since most people start collecting when they are financially stable (~ 40-50 yo), the guy who would be potentially interested in paying a lot of money for my swords 20 years down the road, must be in his mid-20s, ie in college, right now. How many history-minded college students do you know?
I am afraid, my swords will decrease in value 5 years down the road and will be worthless by the time I hit the retirement age.

Interesting article
I take my children to the antique stores and try to keep them interested.
I also have started each one of them a different collection for them to build upon.
Hopefully they will

What a "youngster" has to say
 

As Ariel said our kind of collecting is a sort of investment.

However I dissagree with him about the value decrease in the future. I honestly think that thoose nowdays kids who play games like Prince of Persia, Berserk, Ninja Gaiden ecc. and watch moovies like KillBill, Last Samurai ecc. at a certain age will be enthusiastic to buy some stuff they saw in thoose beloved games/films and they'll be prepared to pay big bucks for it (even more than we do today, 'cos we/you weren't not so much under the affect of the mass-media ;o). I think that interest in collecting will fall over the years, but the number of people who will be enraptured to put a pair of katana or shamshir on the wall will drastically increase due to thoose movies and games.

Beeig myself still pretty young (I've just turned 26 and I still play games and I'm certainlly not ashamed of that) I can confirm that all my coevals are shocked upon my collection. Further, I was selling a 3000$ katana made by osafune sukesada the previous week and I've sold it just yesterday to a pampered youngser just yesterday for a double price. When he saw my little collection he almost felt to a down, he wanted my 13 Luk Keris so badly, 'cos he had seen it in Prince of Persia (yes, games are sometimes stupid), but unfortunatelly it wasn't for sale :D (I regret it a little, thou).

So do not underestmate the power of modern media... Just take a look at the big bucks United Cuttlery and other licenciaries are doing by producing and selling sword and other regalia from the films. I guess that someone would be prepared to buy a real japanese gunto (also appeared in many movies) rather that thoose modern made trash, if he would KNOW that he can get it for just the double price...

Well I also predict an even greater increase of Nazi and Soviet memorabilia. Why? Well I guess that bad guys were always and will be for ever verry popular. :)

On the other hand I'm almost certain that stamps, coins, or more "stupid" things like pencils and lottery tickets or antique toalette paper (what the hell???) and all that meaningless stuff will fall into oblivion sooner or later.

Well, for the end, if you, older collectors have probblems with afterdeath disposal of your collections, I offer volounteer to take it over and I promise to maintain your collections properly :D :D :D

I have it covered for now. My 14yr old has already picked out all my prime pieces and told me when I kick off he is going to take over my collection :D That is if I don't have them buried with me I told him. ;)


Lew

Hi Rick,

In a way Ariel is right, but on the other hand – and I think all collectors should realise this – what we have, all of it is on loan. On loan for further generations.

I think some collecting really does verge on "OCD" and when these collections lack any distinguishing merit their future may well be in doubt or become a museum of curio, I am afiad I might see pencils that way even if some are quite old. As for the things we collect, so long as our societies remain and others attain wealth to enable collecting I am sure the interest is constant. Youngsters grow up and anything can become the catalyst. Just look at some of the lovely young ladies fresh from university that one sees presenting historical documentaries and the like on TV. Tim

I'm having a pyramid built, and they'll all be buried with me :) :)!!!!

Jim-Ra

Seriously, I agree with Jens and I hope that any legacy I leave will be that I did something to help preserve the history of these weapons, and the researchers of the next generation will carry forward and love these weapons as I have.

I believe that as weapon collectors we have a somewhat different niche than the people who collect Avon bottles or match holders .

I would like to believe that the historical and , dare I say it, visceral attraction of these pieces will serve them well in retaining their value and collector interest over the forthcoming generations .

What I fear the most is the threat of the burgeoning legal sanctions against the posession of these items for future generations . A casual glance at some nations' weapons laws today speaks volumes for our future prospects .

After all a well preserved 18th century sword or dagger in the wrong hands will still be able to take a life in the 22nd century .

I would recommend reading Werner Muensterberger's Collecting - An Unruly Passion (Princeton unv press, 1994). He looks at the collecting from a psychoanalytic perspective and cites the popularity of collecting well back to the edge of recorded history. He believe that collectors and collecting do so to satisfy some basic need. Like Linus with his security blanket, collectors tend to derive comfort from acquring objects and from the quest for the objects. It doesn't matter what the objects are, or whether they have any economic value. It is an escape to a comforting place; and something that develops in early childhood.

Given the long hour worked by parents these days, and the way youngsters are packed away in day care centers, we may well see a boom in collector interests. Whether any of that will attach itself to the items we collect is hard to say; however historical pieces are a custodial function, where fewer and fewer classic examples survive with every passing day. Demand will go up just as a factor of attrition. But, be not concerned, kids today may be into other things but they are still as excited as we were about acquiring them.

n2s

As for me, i think that the fact that one day my stuff are gonna be sold is unavoidable. So i just accept the fact and i have made a price list of the stuff and gave it to my wife just in case i kicked the bucket early. My wife said she wont sell it, but when it reaches the children, grandchildren, i hope they'll have some price guide (if it helps at that particular time). Money is not everything, but it is really important. On second thought, perhaps i should make a will and have the collections donated to the museum, just to ensure that it wont end up in ebay's no reserve auction of $0.99... :) Well.. i guess my collections are not that valuable after all.. :(

I'm a generation removed from you, Jens. ;) (In case you need a home for your collection one day. :D )

You, too. ;)

Intermezzo
 

Rasdan,

A step out of the conversation, but, auctions with 0,99$ starting bids for a piece with value around 1000$ usually ends for a twice price compared to thoose auctions for virtually the same item with starting bid 500$, wich end out not sold. :p

Sorry for interruption, Gentlemen, Intersting debate, please, go on. :)

since my collection mainly consist of filipino weapons, getting my kids interested in other aspects of it like the history that goes with it gets them interested. like Valjhun mentioned, video games does help; perfect example was when my son found out there was a moro kris in mortal Kombat. it became his favorite weapon even if the character was weak, lol.

All right Andrew, I will add you to the list:).

Jens

It's a shame! Martial arts, no matter from what countries, are indistinguishable from the cultures themselves. It's part of our heritage, and so the antique weapons they fought with. It's very interesting if you study conflicts of each cultures and how they deal with them, using different types of weapons and strategies against the enemies. For example, even still today, soldiers in Thailand use bribed so they could fight on the front line. that's pretty cool, I say. We just need people like you to spread the words.

It is rather simple I suppose.
There will always be young men that love cold steel.
:)

What an interesting debate to participate!All you gentlemen covered a theme that it is in the mind of every collector of bladed weapons.And after us what?Who will take our small or big collection?Is anyone,our children or anybody,will be interesting in that kind of stuff?
Especially for the keris collectors.If we believe that the keris is "possesed"by somekind of a spirit,if we leave this world (in many,many years from now!!) what is going to happen with this poor spirit?Or the beautiful work a blacksmith or empu had done?Lost for ever?Rust?
Maybe the collection thing is somekind of a vanity.When all your collection ends in a flea market...I dont know ..its kind of sad..

Well said Perkun ; I only hope that the *state* will still allow them to posess such items .

Sell them to me!!! :) Don't underestimate the value of your keris collection. You have some very nice pieces in your collection!

I think as collectors of blades, we are a bit safer than collectors of 'curios'. At least there is an established base of collectors, researchers, literature and not forgetting museum exhibits.

The blades are part of a people's history and culture, and sometimes national pride. So unless a people is completely obliterated, there will always be someone who is interested in his roots and past and will collect these blades. And furthermore, there will always be the 'non-native' collectors here and there. Sometimes, the government recognizes the significance of these blades and passes policies that facilitate the survival of the blade arts (the Japanese comes to mind as an example).

Btw, I'm 27. I started collecting kerises when I was 22. Does that make me part of the current generation obsessed with mp3 players with gigabytes of songs that they didn't know they had? :p Well, ok, I could be the oddball amongst my more 'modern' peers, but I think there are new young collectors being born every day.

Tell them tales and legends involving the blades, or tell them about the history and exploits of the people. I think this is especially powerful when the stories are from one's native culture because it creates a sense of identity and pride. Heroes (and their blades) never die.

And how many of us wanted a dha after watching Suriyothai or Sema: Warrior of Ayutthaya, or a jian after watching Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or The Hero?

Now we just need someone to make a movie on the Moros and the kris-guys will probably see their collection double in value. :p

Mine is just normal stuff Blu. For the time being, i think i'll just keep it so that i have something to look at before retiring to bed every night. :)

I distinctively remember some of your posts. There are beautiful pieces in your collection! If you bring them down to Adni's shop, I'm very sure they will go into the 'premium kerises' showcase upstairs. :)

But you are right, we derive more pleasure from looking at them and caring for them than having the money in our bank account. Who wants something as common as money, or a Rolex for that matter!

An ex-classmate's wife recently told me that her colleague just bought a $0.5mil watch (a Jaeger-LeCoultre, I believe). I immediately told her I'd rather have a $0.5mil keris. :) She looked at me as if I were mad. Well, I don't care...

Moros
 

Well , there is a very old Hollywood movie starring Gary Cooper and David Niven ; The Real Glory . Of course it is a slanted view of things but not a bad flick at all .
Made in 1939 available on videotape VHS digitally remastered with stereo sound .

Try :

filmwest@pacbell.net

The Master and Commander series contains one book in which Jack and crew fend off attacks from kris waving pirates. It is closely based on a true event which staretd with a British shipwreck in ~1813. In the true life story the Captain manages to fend survive the accidental grounding on an unchartered reef, rescue his crew, deliver a VIP Envoy, organize an economy, and fend off heavy pirate attacks; not only do they survive but they do so without losing a single crew member - and on the way home the Captain even gets to meet with Napolian on Elba. The novel is greatly toned down; nobody would believe the real story even if it was true.

Perhaps the powers that be will pursuade Russel Crow to take a shot at a sequel to Master and Commander.

n2s

The Nutmeg of Consolation
 

A great book !

I wish they had done the novel of the same name (Master and Commander) instead of making a "portable soup" of many of the novels rolled into one .

Beggars cannot be choosers though .

I think I've read all of O'Brian's stuff at least three times . :)
I'd like to see Ridley Scott direct the next O'Brian movie ( with Russell Crowe and Paul Bettany of course ) .

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/03...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

This is the volume in which the Master and Commander crew battles Dyaks and Malays.

It is available here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...lance&n=283155

n2s

Greetings to all,

To the elder collectors here, I'd like to say that there will always be younger generations to care for your collections. You yourselves have taken up this activity on the trails of those before you who got them from original sources in some cases. I have barely started my collection and I'm the same age Bluerf was when he started. Like my cotemporaries I do carry by 5 gig mp3 player :) but when I'm home I read about the blades of the world and stare at my beautiful Javanese keris. I dream of arranging an appropriate weapons room in the future, with each wall devoted to a specific region of the world. I am just as attracted by northern-African, Indian, and eastern weapons, and as soon as I accumulate some disposable income I rush to the bay to see what's new. Later on in life I hope to meet some of you and perhaps provide some of your pieces with a new home :rolleyes:
I think that young people at my age are just getting mature enough to be attracted by the cultures and histories represented by edged weapons. As they learn more, they inevitably become more involved in this activity - or even life style.
Regards,
Manolo

ahem!
you dont have to be in your twenties to own an mp3 player.

.............do you? :confused:

Not much to worrry about, unless...
 

I will have to try to find that book; I agree with the viewpoint you have summarized. Take a look at the effort people will go to for imaginary items in games like World of Warcraft and the compulsive efforts pursuring the numerous quests in that game.

I am presently savoring my way through Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle (1962) and some of his insights relevant to collecting and faking antiques.

I believe the thing for us to be concerned with is not a fading interest in what we collect, but the danger of legislative prohibitions upon these objects as weapons. The 2nd Amendment (thank you Founding Fathers) provides us some shielding in the USA, but some of our Australian comrade's collections may well be in peril.

... gtg ... WoW servers should now be back up... :)

I never understood the fact, why would be owning an antique, not sharp katana submissed to prohibitions when you can buy a lot cheaper chainsaw in the next hardware store... Let's gonna left to the court experst to say wich can make more damage to fellow citizens.. nosense... :confused:

I just do not understand this moral panic about antique weapon collecting, the weapons available at any DIY store or garden center are many. Like religion the weapon is harmless it is the person behind it that is dangerous. Tim.

I read a cool passage in a biography of an ancestor of mine, Nathaniel Bowditch (mathematician, navigator, and a Salem ship captain in the spice trade in the late 18th C), about his first visit to Java. I should look up the port, etc., but he noticed that every one of the workers who came out in little boats to load pepper onto his ship had a keris stuck in the back of his waistband. This caused him some concern, so he insisted that only one boat be allowed to unload onto his ship at a time, and no more than three Malay be allowed on board at one time. Such was the reputation of Malay pirates at the time. The port folks were severely aggrevated, but he kept firm (basically said "there is pepper at the next port, so do it my way or get out of my way") and everything went smoothly. He was hardly a Russel Crowe swashbuckler -- quite a little egg-head, actually -- which makes the story all the more amusing.

"ETHINOGRAPHIC ART" WILL ALWAYS HAVE WORTH AS LONG AS THERE ARE GALLERIES AND AUCTIONS SUCH AS SOUTHBYS AND CHRISTIES AND ANTIQUE ROADSHOW. MUCH IF NOT MOST OF THEIR SALES ARE FOR INVESTMENT POTENTIAL NOT JUST TO COLLECT BECAUSE YOU ARE INTERESTED AND LOVE THAT KIND OF STUFF.
THE ITEMS OFTEN BECOME VALUABLE BECAUSE THE CULTURES WHO PRODUCED THEM ARE EITHER GONE OR DON'T MAKE THINGS NEAR THE QUALITY AS THE OLD ORIGINAL ITEMS. LESS EXAMPLES OF A TYPE OF ITEM LEADS TO HIGHER PRICES DUE TO ITS RARITY SO WELL CRAFTED EXAMPLES SHOULD CONTINUE TO INCREASE.
COLLECTORS OF EDGED WEAPONS ARE ODDBALLS COMPARED TO MOST OF THE VERY NUMEROUS REDNECK CULTURE WHO ONLY DISCUSS,SPORTS,WOMEN,POWER TOOLS, CARS, TV PROGRAMS, FISHIN AND HUNTING :eek: BUT EVEN THEY OFTEN COLLECT FISHING LURES,GUNS, TOOLS AND SPORTS RELATED STUFF SO I GUESS THEY AREN'T ALL THAT DIFFERENT FROM US AFTER ALL :confused: WE ARE A SMALL MINORITY AS FAR AS COLLECTING GOES, THERE ARE MANY MORE STAMP AND COIN COLLECTORS EVEN ROCK AND FOSSIL COLLECTORS OUTNUMBER US. THATS GOOD AS IT LEAVES MORE STUFF FOR EACH OF US :D BUT AS THE POPULATION CONTINUES TO INCREASE I AM SURE THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF NEW COLLECTORS TO REPLACE US WHEN THEY GET BITTEN BY THE SAME BUG THAT BIT US. WITH THE INTERNET WE WILL ALSO HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF SELLING TO THE ENTIRE WORLD INSTEAD OF TO THE ONE WEIRD KID AT THE LOCAL GUN SHOW SO OUR POSSIBILITYS OF PASSING ON OUR COLLECTIONS ARE BETTER THAN IN THE PAST.

I don't believe religeon plays a direct role behind the fundamentalist-extremists' politcal view and agenda. But what I do believe is religeons do give these people the courage and strength to carry out their evil, personal, political agenda. So it gives them the strength and courage to do, what they think, any violent demonstrations that is necessary.

I would agree there, but I must say I was not necessarily thinking of acts of violence, we digress and the gods will be upon us. Tim

Indeed they will . :cool:

Ahem
 

And .... we will end the little digression into theology RIGHT THERE, please. In the words of Bartok the bat, "It will only end in tears." :)

http://www.foxhome.com/anastasia/cha...artokframe.jpg

I'm not as subtle as Rick. ;)