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silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)
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saw this in one of the auction sites (auction completed).
So beautiful.Mykeris :) |
Hello Mykeris,
This style of fancily decorated silver sheath or pendok is a recent fashion, and it is applied to both Bugis and balinese style krisses.... Don't regret it, you can easily find similar pieces on the market if you wish so. :) Regards |
Hi Jean, how much does it cost in Bali? :) I am looking for one. Appreciate if you dont mind showing me pic. samples. TQ.
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Sorry David, kindly ignore earlier posting Jean. :)
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Hello Mykeris,
If I notice such a piece for sale I will contact you by private message. Other members may have noted it also and propose you something. :) Regards |
Very kind of you Jean. Regards..Mykeris.
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So if I understand right, toli-tolis like this one are recent. What do older toli-tolis look like?
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Hello Jose, will try to take pictures from the book Senjata Pusaka Bugis at weekend. Regards, Detlef |
Hello Detlef and Jose,
In this book only 2 silver toli-toli are shown and at least one of them is recent. You can see nice and old gold specimens in the books "Keris" from Dr Hamzuri (pusakas from the Jakarta Museum) and "Courts of Indonesia" by Helen Jessup. Regards |
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Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.
Regards, Detlef |
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The kris shown on the right of the picture has a recent sheath and hilt IMO, see another specimen with a similar embedded silver wire decoration on the bottom part of the gandar (not Sulawesi Bugis but rather from Bali/ Lombok or Sumbawa?). However this style of decoration seems a bit less recent than the spiral wires and flowers seen on the sheath shown by Mykeris. But other opinions are welcome! :) Regards |
Frankly, the work on this first example that MyKeris posted looks like a hot mess. The workmanship is really poor on this piece, no where near the quality of this older example that Jean has just posted. It is also far too much in regards to style. I much prefer the understated and more elegant effect of this last example.
:shrug: |
Thank you all folks! What I can partially conclude is that the earlier toli-tolis are not chased but wire filigree in all the work.
I like the last example posted, and that has better craftsmanship. It has silver filigree all over instead of chasing and embossing, which I admit is more difficult in this case. I hope I am correct in my analysis of the metal work of the earlier toli-toli. Another question: does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)? |
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here some samples I manged to pick up from a blog. Sure, the best. :) David, I think you should survey more. :)
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The one posted by Jean is about 30 years old, considered cool. :)
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Hello everyone,
I have attached photos of two pieces with toli-toli, One is of a more recent make and one is quite old. I believe we would be hasty to conclude that earlier toli-tolis are not either chased or embossed, but wire filigree. As always things are not always what they seem top be, especially when it comes to keris. regards, Erik |
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These last two that you posted are of a much finer craft. :) That very last one you posted seems quite unusual in style Eric, but i really like the workmanship. When do you suppose this one was made? |
Lovely examples. I guess it is only the quality and not the style that determines age?
Otherwise, this is getting more confusing (the state where I live :confused: ) |
Thanks David, hope to get more old samples from the others, tq in advance, :)
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I like the one you posted Erik. Looks genuine 1900s.
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David, I'm running on memory here, and I read the source some months ago, so I could be incorrect, but in the book on Bugis keris that came out a while ago I seem to recall that the reason given for the use of toli2 was that when somebody came into the presence of the ruler, the toli2 needed to be in place , and if it were not in place, the offending person got whacked right there with no questions asked.
Effectively it was to ensure that a succession by assassination did not occur. There might have been subsidiary reasons also given, but what I seem to remember is what I have written. Anybody who has this book can check it easily. I cannot check this book at the moment, as I have lent it a friend. In fact, I have never seen an old example of one of these lavish toli2, the only ones I've ever seen have been made from plain, soft cord. I've seen a couple of pics of the extravagant work of art ones that were probably a bit old, but I've never the real thing in front of me. |
The first example is of a very recent make, I picked it up in 1998, and it was purchased in and shipped from Lombok. The second example with the kinatah emas blade is different in that is has some age to it, it is estimated to have been made early to mid-20th century. I purchased it privately from a Canadian collection.
The recent pieces seem to start showing up on the market in the late part of the last century, and just checking EBay and others, they are not hard to find in various qualities. In a much earlier post we were informed of the spiritual meaning of the Toli Toil and also advised that the correct name is “Passiosumange” which means ring of spirit. There is a belief that the wearer of the keris with Passiosumange attached will have a greater sense of what is happening in his area/home land. It is also noted that it is a symbol of high status. However, the ornament is also called Tuli Tuli and also Tuli Tuli Batir Batir. This is translated in the Malay – English dictionary as follows; Batir Batir, the golden band used to fasten the keris scabbard to the belt. Note: This band which is stiff and shaped like a hoop, is attached to the scabbard and is really more for ornament than for use. In the Malay Peninsula the term Tuli Tuli is used. As for the original intent, it has been suggested that is a symbol of high status in society, which carry some logic with me, as the finer and more expensive materials used, the finer garap employed, the higher the price thus eliminating most people. I did see a photo of a pair of newlywed where the male had a keris with Toli Toli and will as such suggest it is worn for ceremonial purposes as well. Perhaps some of our fellow forum members from the Malay world can expand on the true purpose and its original intent. Regards, Erik |
After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum. :) :)
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The explanation that Alan puts forth is one that i have indeed heard before and it does make some kind of logical sense. Of course, if that is the case it makes me wonder exactly when this protocol was in place in the palace since Eric's older example is a stylized version that would not allow practical application of the toli-toli (still pretty slick looking though, innit? ;) ). I would also be really interested in knowing what societal level within the culture would wear these. If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris. :shrug: |
Thanks David, I will certainly follow future postings in this forum. You know why? ...Because you people talk facts and logic. TQ again. :)
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I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market. :) Best regards |
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Regards |
Great piece! So would you consider this an old toli-toli?
Also would this piece be considered nobility dress? |
Hello Battara,
If you refer to my last piece, I would just consider the toli-toli as an used and standard model for everyday dress. The missing loop at the bottom uses the same materials as the top one and the binding string is more recent. Regards |
A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=toli Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent. |
Bugis Sulawesi
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Yes Alan, its written in Keris Bugis book.
As per Naga Sasra comment, attached sample my keris with passio sumange. I think Andi irfan also written somewhere in this forum about passio sumange as well. If you can see underneath there is a piece of paper which normally written something good for the owner or written prayer (As told to me by senior in bugis keris) I just leave it as it is and stain the blade (personal preference) Rasjid |
Well, i guess we are not really getting any closer to the original intent of the passio sumange, though Andi has some interesting things to say here.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99317 I'm not sure that Jean's hanging suggestion make sense since many of what appear to be earlier examples or not the simple cord variety that his or Rasjid's keris show. Also, the loop is on the front face of the sheath so i cannot see how it would hang well from a belt with this loop. |
Thanks Rasjid, but I'm not clear on whether you're telling me my recollection was correct, of Naga Sasra's recounting is correct.
My recollection could well be wrong, as noted, but I do know that what I wrote I have read somewhere. One of the problems with anything like this, by that, I mean the interpretation of intent, is that the interpretation is only good for a specific window in time, most especially is that so with the keris. Thus it is that we have a philosophical or a mystical interpretation put upon a utilitarian object when the original need for utility has passed. A really good example of what I mean here is the system of philosophy that has grown around the keris in Central Jawa over the last 200 years, or maybe less. The utilitarian purpose of the keris in Jawa passed long ago, but it became a cultural artifact and developed a different purpose for its continued existence. Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss. Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige. The very simple fact of the entire human existence is that the passing of time alters the way in which things are perceived:- what is true today is not necessarily true for any time in the past. |
Toli x 2
My oh my !
I can't believe how many of these are now featured on a certain auction site since we have started discussing them ... :eek: ;) Cause and effect ? :rolleyes: |
Isn't it nice to be taken notice of?
Wonder if Lee could charge a commission for promotion? |
Hi Alan,
Just confirming your statement that its written in Keris Bugis book about "in the presence of a ruler". I believe pp.153 :D Rasjid |
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Later the loop at the hilt basis disappeared and perhaps here the whole thing got another meaning. |
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