Pamor thread?
 

Hello All,
Would it be possible to have a thread with pamor photos?
I know this has been done with particular Keris which folk have gotten and others post similar or related pieces, but could a gallery of sorts be made where such images can be posted? Or maybe a sticky thread?

Some of you have posted images of Pamor I had never seen...really top shelf stuff.

Just a completely selfish cry from the snow covered shop of a blacksmith.
I am about to reconstruct some of these patterns and the larger sample body I have the better it is for me.:o

Ric

the idea was already suggested, but it did not come further than an idea :shrug:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12521

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so.

There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche.

What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

Alan,
I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing.

Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest.

Ric

Ric, i don't think that you will want to get caught in the "name game" here and it will only distract you from what it seems you goals are. As Alan has already pointed out, there are a lot of good examples of pamor pattern in many available books. You will likely not only find the same name used for "similar" patterns that seem to have an obviously different approach, but completely different names for the same "exact" patterns, dependent upon many variables including, but not exclusive to the area the blade originates from, when the blade was made and what reference materials the person applying the name has read for their source info.
I am not sure what good it would serve to amass a colection of various pamors here except to create endless debate on what these various pamors should be called. You can certainly find a fairly large selection of clear photographs of different patterns either in some of these reference books or with a google search of images under the key word "keris pamor patterns".

Indeed Gentleman,
Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general.
Yet,
Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have.

As to names:
I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful.

Ric

Richard, you've noted in this most recent post that some of the pamor patterns "posted here" --- which I take as posted to this Forum --- are new patterns that do not appear in the books you have.

Yes, you're right.

We see a fair few pamor patterns posted mostly by people looking for a name, or to confirm a name. I can think of two that have surfaced in the last couple of weeks:- kembang pete (this is pronounced in a similar way to "pehteh", not as the abbreviation of "Peter") and klabang sejuta.

The kp is a variation of bendo sagodo, or brongsong, or santa, and 40 years ago all of them would probably have been dumped into the same basket and the variations from bendo sagodo would have been regarded as attempts that didn't quite make it. Or, alternatively the kp might have been regarded as banyu tetes on steroids.

The ks is interesting. I first saw this pamor in probably about 1988. It was the first time I'd seen it, the first time the dealer I bought from had seen it, and the first time Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo had seen it. It was a new creation out of Sumenep. For a number of years it was called "tirto tejo". Now it looks like the power of public opinion, or maybe marketing has decided that its klabang sejuta.

Now, this name is interesting, and it tells us that we are in fact looking at a new pamor that has been very probably given its name by the people in Jakarta, rather than people in the Javanese heartland. If this was an old Javanese pamor and they wanted to call it "thousand centipede" it would be "klabang sewu".

Sewu = one thousand in Javanese, sejuta = post 1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian, seyuta = pre-1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian. The transposition of "o" for "a" in some words is a Javanese characteristic of colloquial speech, so if "sewu sejuta" were to be spoken by a Javanese person in relaxed conversation, it would very probably be pronounced "sewuseyuto". The inclusion of an "e" after the "k" (kelabang) is the written expression of the pronunciation, which could probably be better represented by an apostrophe rather than an 'e', but it is not the usually accepted formal spelling.

But why didn't the originators of this name use Indonesian for "centipede"? "klabang " is Javanese

Well, if they had the name would be "lipan berbisa sejuta".

Sorta doesn't flow real well, does it?

And klabang has probably come over into Indonesian fairly widely, its certainly understood, anyway, and sounds better than "lipan berbisa"

All of the original keris terminology is Javanese.

Why?

Because the keris is first and foremost a Javanese cultural artifact.

Bahasa Indonesia, or Indonesian, is based upon Malay as it is spoken in a part of South Sumatera. Indonesian is the national language of the country, Indonesia, it is not the language of the Javanese people.

So when we see keris terminology rendered in Indonesian it is a dead give away that what we're looking at is a newly manufactured name, and probably a newly manufactured artifact as well.

Before somebody jumps onto the bandwagon and points out that everywhere the keris appears there are names that vary from the Javanese let us consider the spread of the keris.

This spread of the keris probably began with Majapahit trade links, but at that time in history the keris within Majapahit had a very specific social function, a function that would have precluded many forms of keris from being legitimately worn by people who were outside the Majapahit social structure. Some would very probably have been given to local rulers in parts of SE Asia that were under Majapahit influence, but there would have been no keris presence in the general populace in these places outside Majapahit.

With Islam a couple of things happened:- Javanese metal working skills went through a quantum leap (Pigeaud), and trade expanded. This was when the keris dispersion really took off, and by the late 17th century keris had actually become trade goods. The original purpose of the keris in Jawa had disappeared with the disappearance of Majapahit.

Thus, when the keris found its way into other parts of SE Asia it was adopted as a local artifact and given its own name and terminology by the local people in these other places.

In fact, keris terminology is full of euphemisms. Nowhere does a keris term tell you what the thing it refers to truly is.

So, fast forward to the keris revival of the 1970's and the second coming of the keris industry in Sumenep --- second coming, because these people have been making keris for the rest of Jawa since Majapahit times. We have a number of very talented pattern welders who are now taking traditional pamor motifs and extending the possibilities of those traditional motifs. It's understandable that we are seeing some seemingly different pamor motifs, but when we closely examine those motifs we can always relate them to a traditional motif, or to a combination of traditional motifs.

As David has noted, the name game is a pointless exercise. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm foundation to keris terminology. One can devote years to learning all the little quirks of keris terminology that apply in one particular location, then move 40 kilometers down the road and find that perhaps half of his hard won knowledge is not really of much use in his new location. One thing we should never get too upset about is the fact that not everybody will always agree as to name of some pamor, dhapur or whatever.

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

Well, i am not opposed to such a thread outright. Bring it on if the membership is so inclined. My suggestion would be close, detailed photographs that clearly show the pattern and lead to a better understanding of the construction of the pamor pattern. Sharpness and clarity of the images will be very important if the images are to be truly useful. Endless debate about the "correct" name of posted pamors will not. Let the uploading begin... :D

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

I suggest an underneath view of the Ganja as well...it often has the cross-section of the original block from which the keris was forged...very telling as to construction of the blade.....and sometimes not related at all.

I'll go through my tiny grouping of keris and see if I have anything worth posting. As I have a new display stand (thank you Alan) I have reason to get them all in one place now.

Ric

If I may suggest, it might also be useful and easier to use if everyone uses the same size pictures, about: 500 x 800 pixels (fits in one screen image)

You know, if we really wanted to get this thing up and running, it might be useful to harvest from old posts as a beginning strategy.

Its a simple thing to copy a pic, rework if necessary and then post again with a cross reference to the original post.

Since Richard generated this idea of a dedicated thread, I feel that the honour of carrying out this harvest should go to Richard.

I agree fully with David that this new thread should not degenerate into a bun fight over names, but I equally feel that where we have a name it should be given, however, not in isolation, but rather in a format that attaches the name to a source, for example:-

" According to Harsrinuksmo , P.123, this is pamor ron kates."

Any other opinions would be required to be posted in a similar format, that way we won't waste time and effort with endless conflicting opinions that have no solid foundation.

OK
If folk do not mind me harvesting past images to repost I will do that.

Ric

Ric, i would say that if they placed them in another thread on these forums that they are pretty much fair game. Have at it! :)

Here I believe is the first batch.
I selected what are interesting to me in no particular order.
Ric

More

Ric

More
Ric

More
Ric

Yet more
Ric

double posting Sorry
Ric

Hello friends,
Personally and in order to facilitate further reference I would recommend that we open a separate post for each main type of pamor so that everyone could include his specimens at any time. And as advised by Alan I would further propose that we standardize the pictures as follows: full blade viewed from both sides, sor-soran viewed fom both sides, and ganja base viewed from the peksi tip. :)
Regards

Jean,
Sounds good. These images were taken from other threads so you get what they posted.
Ric

Well then Jean, someone will need to describe and designate the names for those main types of pamor in order to coordinate this. And while this may make some sense it does not create the one go-to thread of all pamors that was the O.P.'s original request.
Certainly images of blades in their sheaths, while perhaps nice to look at, deal with dress and not pamor so i would recommend that we refrain from posting such images.

:)

My vote would be for a single thread dealing with only pamor.

As David has said, if we begin to categorise and split into types, we then have the difficulty of identifying the pamor in order to categorise it, and what would be the basis for the categorisation?

The whole thing would be too difficult.

Nope, I really do think that we dump everything into one basket, and if the necessity should arise whereby we need to examine a particular pamor more closely, we can lift that pamor and begin a thread for its examination.

I see Ric's pamor thread as something like an overarching reference, that can then generate further threads.

I'd also prefer one thread containing all the pamor types. Separate threads would make classification difficult and would make it more difficult for interested people to come across new patterns.

It seems to me nevertheless useful to place them in certain categories, to make it a lot easier to look something up.

(Maybe an indication of categories used in the Dutch pamor-atlas)

Beras wutah like- pamorpatterns
Spherical- pamorpatterns
Leaf shaped- pamorpatterns
Striped- pamorpatterns
Angle shaped- pamorpatterns
Other- pamorpatterns

Otherwise you get (in my opinion) a pamorthread with hundreds of pictures you have to look through,to find something if you do not know the name of the pamor :shrug:

Sirek,
This is exactly my concern and why I suggested a separate thread (not post, sorry for my mistake) for each main type of pamor but it seems that the idea is not popular, no problem!
Regards

Gentlemen, as I understand it, this pamor thread was proposed not as a point of reference to identify a particular pamor, but rather as a compendium of pamor patterns. Thus, its purpose is not to "look something up", but rather, just to look.

It seems to have already been decided that we are to have pictures only in this thread, not pictures and words, the point being that we do not want to have this thread develop into a series of debates as to whether something is Ron Duru, Ron Kenduru, Ron Genduru, or Bulu Ayam --- and so forth.

So, this thread is not to be a reference to assist in the identification of a particular pamor, but simply a series of pictures of pamors, all having an equal but undefined value.

Think of it this way:- if we decided to open a thread that contained pictures of nothing but beautiful young women --- or ugly old men for that matter --- would we attempt to compartmentalise these pictures into Caucasian, Asian, Sub-Saharan African. Mediterranean etc, etc, etc, or would we be quite content to simply look at the diversity of human form? I would suggest that a series of Beyonce Knowles look-a-likes, one after the other might become just a trifle boring. One can even become bored with too much gelato, and fail to differentiate the chocolate from the hazelnut.

Then there is the problem of how we would categorise. Personally I would find this to be an extremely difficult job, because before I could categorise a pamor I would need to understand how it was made, and that is not always easy. In fact, it is sometimes extremely difficult, even for somebody who has handled thousands of blades with various pamor patterns, and who has himself made a number of different pamor patterns, to understand what was done to produce a pamor. Even to be absolutely certain as to whether a pamor motif is mlumah or miring or a combination of both is sometimes not easy, in fact, sometimes not even possible.

I have not seen this "pamor atlas" that has been mentioned, but if the categories listed by Sirek are an accurate reflection of the way in which this book categorises pamor motifs, then I'm afraid I would find it impossible to use. To me, these categorisations are meaningless.

There is one other thing that we need to understand too:- this Forum is open to the entire world: it is not the exclusive preserve of experienced and knowledgeable students and collectors of the keris. We have people here who are regular contributors and experienced collectors who are unable to differentiate between a keris and some other items of tosan aji. These people would be confounded by the task of first having to categorise a pamor motif in their own minds, before they could access a category that somebody else had decided was a particular type.

Categorisation is a fine tool, but only when everybody who uses the data base is aware of, understands, and is able to use the indicators which determine the category. Since there has been no standard established upon which to base the categorisation, the only person who would understand it would be the person who decided to place it in category A, B, or C.

My preference remains as already stated:- everything into one basket, and just look; if one particular example should grab one's attention, lift the image from the basket and commence a new thread for the discussion of that particular motif:- at that point everybody can give it whatever name they know it by, propose solutions for its manufacture, and detail its talismanic qualities.

^^^ ummmm....yeah....what he said... :)

About the only qualifiers I could suggest for this thread would be to identify which pamors are Mlumah method and which are adeg . :) :shrug:

I think Alan made the point quite eloquently on why categorization would be difficult to achieve.

To this I'd like to add that this is a forum, a medium which has been designed from the ground up for discussion - not categorization. If one would truly want to categorize pamor patterns, I think frequent re-ordering would be necessary. This is something the forum is not suited to as posts cannot be easily re-arranged or edited by all. For categorization, a tool such as labels would be extremely useful - something which is unavailable to us forumites.

I would suggest that a forum is simply not the right kind of tool for any real categorization effort due to its technical limitations.

Pamor Patterns website
 

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

A nice initiative Dave.

I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may.

Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron".

The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves.

Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.

Hello Dave,
Congratulations for your valuable work and thanks for sharing it with us!
As Alan said, I would argue about the names given to some pamor patterns but as it is only my personal opinion and not backed by an expert, I will keep it for myself! :)
Best regards

I agree with both Alan and Jean here. Nice start for an ambitious project. I also agree with them on the name game and frankly i have never heard of many of the pamor names you put forth here (though pamor ID is certainly not my strong point). Not saying they are necessarily incorrect, but i am sure you will get some argument in certain quarters. I also noticed that in at least one case you had a photo labelled Kul Buntet (in "Other Pamors") that mostly shows the upper part of the blade and just a bit of a pattern that may or may not be Kul Buntet at the bottom of the photo. This might give a misinterpretation to the viewer who might assume that the pamor above the circular pattern is also part of Kul Buntet. I would say that for this project to be more effective you will need to up the quality of the images quite a bit as a large number of them are out of focus, poorly lit or poorly cropped (or all of the above) rendering their actual usage questionable for any kind of positive identification. I look forward to watching this project grow so please keep us updated. :)

Regarding the pamor names identified by Dave, some of them may be from Malaysian origin so we are not familiar with them as most of us better know the Javanese ones. :)
Best regards

While I was researching the pamor of my krises I came across this thread and in particular this post with a reference to the David J. Atkinson site. I think it is an extremely valuable reference point and while my knowledge in general and in particular of the pamors remains very much the beginner's, I too realize how difficult it is to systemize any kind of gallery within the scope of the “ taxonomy “ of the kris.

Yet, It would be very nice to have a pamor resource here too but then I can already see that each entry would be create a discussion on its own since few pamors appear to be a clear cut case and given that there are no universally recognized sources that would be to everyone’s liking and satisfaction, there will always be the matter of how to call what in which way.