A gamble, your opinion?
 

Hello,

have bought this keris: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251108487966...84.m1439.l2649
There have been only a few expressionless pictures posted but what I am able to see is that all, the blade and dress as well, are good worked.
What do you think?

I LIKE IT AND THE PRICE WAS CERTIANLY RIGHT. THE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND FITTINGS LOOKS LIKE GOOD WORK AND THE WOOD LOOKS TO HAVE A NICE GRAIN. HARD TO TELL IF ITS AN OLD BLADE REWORKED, OR NEWER BLADE AND WORK DONE TOGETHER WHEN THE KERIS WAS MADE. EITHER WAY A VERY ATTRACTIVE KERIS.

Hi Detlef,

What a great looking Keris. All the elements look really nicely made, congratulations.
I look forward to seeing more pictures when you have it with you.
Best
Gene

I look forward to better photos when you receive this. I could be wrong, but i am not sure this looks like pre-WW2 kinatah work to me. I hope you bought the kerns and not the story... :)

Thank you Barry, Gene and David for comment. I don't think that the keris is very old but like you see it is good worked and I am byself very curious to see it in real and hold it in my hands. It will be special very interesting if the kinatah is from gold. And of course I don't bought the story! :D

Regards,

Detlef

The photos give me the impression that the kinatah is brass, but this can be very deceptive. I hope that you find otherwise once you have the keris in hand.
If the story were correct and this was brought back from WW2 you would have done quite well on this one, as this would then have to be a pre-WW2 blade. That might be just a bit too good a deal to hold out hope for, i'm afraid... :shrug: :)

I would agree with David regarding the materials of the kinatah, I apparently see some traces of "vert de gris" (green copper compound) on the reverse side of the blade, which should indicate that the kinatah is from brass (may be gilt).
Regarding the estimated age of the piece, the seller just says that it was brought to the US after WW2 but this is not a very accurate statement :D From the pictures and if it was my decision I would categorize the kris as probably from tangguh kamardikan muda Madura but of course I can prove wrong and the piece is quite well made.
The seller also proposes another kris with a kinatah blade of similar quality.
Regards

Yeah Jean, i think this was left intentionally ambiguous. Of course, the intention is also to get you to think it might be a WW2 bring back, but i don't see that as particularly likely.

Hello Jean,

this is what I see as well and I think when the brass is gilded it is a good catch by this price. I don't think that it is kinatah mas, otherwise it would be too much luck! :D :)

Regards,

Detlef

in the eighties keris of this type were fairly common in Jalan Surabaya. I would make this about 30 years old giver or take a few year...

Hello Dave,

for whom they were made? And was the quality good?

Regards,

Detlef

Since you are asking for opinions, Detlef; I would say that I might like this keris more without the brass 'kinatah' overlayed .

Just a sculpture in the pamor itself I would find more interesting .. no need for gloss, IMO . :shrug: :o

I think that for the answer to this we might want to consider just what the significance of the addition of gold kinatah might mean in the culture. Who was a blade with gold kinatah meant for? Then ask, who then would a keris with brass kinatah be made for... :shrug:

I started to see keris with brass kinatah, and brass kinatah gold plated, in the late 1980's, and they continue to be available until today.

As with virtually all keris of the modern era they are made for local consumption, and they are bought by Indonesians as dress keris. Obviously the people who buy them want a bit of bling and cannot afford gold.

I have seen much older keris with kinatah from brass and from alloys other than gold, but these are not common.

The right to kinatah work on a keris was sometimes granted by a ruler, much as medals are given in our own society, however in the far distant past it was also a prerogative of rank. In more recent times --- and I don't know from precisely when --- kinatah was used by anybody who wanted it and could afford it.

As a general rule, we seldom find kinatah work combined with complex pamor.

Pages 181 and 182 show such a Keris if anyone has a copy of "Ferro, oro, pietre prezoise...Le Armi Orientali Dell'Armeris Reale Di Torino.

Gav

Hi Rick,

I have tried the gamble because it seems that the quality is good and I personally like keris with kinatah. Let us see what I have bought when I have received it and I can post better pictures. When I was wrong is the amount I have given wasn't extrem! :D

Regards,

Detlef

Thank you Alan, this is what I want to know. :)

Regards,

Detlef

Agree with Alan more or less. I was in Jakarta '85 - 86 and remember seing quite a few of these. Quite variable in quality from fairly good - like yours, all the way to hideous. The big difference these days is that the top end of the market has improved markedly. Your pieces was about as good as it got in those days. Today, there are newly made pieces that rival the artistry of the great old pieces. Wasn't a lot of that around in the mid-Eighties...at least, not on Jalan Surabaya ;o)

Hi Detlef,

As mentioned previously, this is newly made and still available in the market. It is a good keris and fittings for the price paid (i dont know how much they charge for postage), you are doing allright :) Some people pay even more in Jakarta. Especially people who never connected on the Internet.

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
This is brass under neath as Jane mentioned (Green Stuff). Some newer model comes with additional gold n Silver also.

Regards
Rasjid

Dave and Rasjid,

thank you both for the additional informations. :)

Regards,

Detlef

Attached is the picture of a probably recent blade with 22Kt? gold kinatah on a brass base. I realized it recently because the kinatah is peeling off at one corner due to the lack of care from myself so I could see the underlying brass base, but the gold coating is quite thick actually. Your comments will be welcome.
Regards

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality! :) Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hi Jean,

From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made.

If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No.

For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it.

I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here. :p

Rasjid







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Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris".
From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?

Hello Detlef and Rasjid,
I never saw such a kinatah motif before so I suppose that it was created from the imagination of the maker but I find it very decorative. The quality of the kinatah is not excellent but still quite good IMO and the amount of gold is significant.
I agree that I should replace the pendok blewah by a closed one but it needs to be golden colour for matching with the kinatah blade and I did not find a suitable one yet (only bling-bling pieces).
Rasjid, we should not discuss about price or value in this forum, let me just say that I paid the price of a brand new Mercedes Benz for this piece but a miniature one! :D
Regards

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation.

It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold.

It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass.

It must be gold.

It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced.


Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect.

In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

Kinatah work
 

I can't put someone else keris in this forum and discredit them :D
Yes David, the Keris is sold as old keris but I wont argue about the keris and its depending the buyer if they are prepared to spend and risk their money on it.

How many more out there good keris with old Kinatah work ? I'm talking long before 1900's

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.

rasjid

This is an interesting topic. If I may ask, is there remaining knowledge as to what degree does this "set design" has to fall onto? In other words, what forms the parameters of the "set design" - is there a documented pakem of sorts that must be followed or is it more of a custom transformed onto an unspoken rule, something in between or something else?

Thanks,

J.

It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker.
It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.

Looks beautiful and well executed regardless of age. :)

Gio, are you talking about traditional kinatah here or kinatah-like ornamentation?

What I can remember about kinatah, without going back to my notebooks is this:-

following the Pati rebellion against Mataram and the victory of Mataram over Pati, kinatah was awarded to the various officers in the military forces:- a penewu was accorded a singo- gajah gonjo, a bupati kliwon was accorded kinatah kamarogan, a bupati dalem and a pangeran were accorded kinatah anggrek, singo barong and nogo.

Pati rebelled in 1617.

There are four types of kinatah kamarogan:- ranting, daun, bunga, buah. Bupatis are entitled to wear these motifs.

The family of a bupati dalem is entitled to kinatah anggrek, singo barong and manglar mongo.

Prior to the Pati expedition singo - gajah kinatah did not exist.

What I have written above refers to the Karaton Surakarta Hadiningrat. Other kratons may have different rules and different traditions.

Originally kinatah work was the prerogative of a ruler to award as recognition of honour, similar to the way we give medals and awards to people now --- in May this year Bob Dylan received the Medal of Freedom, USA's highest civilian honour, if Bobby Boy had lived in Mataram his keris probably would have received a kinatah award instead. That's the way it worked. Don't forget:- the keris is the symbol of the man:- honour the keris, you honour the man.

Since these kinatah awards were handed out by rulers, they needed to follow very strict rules that incorporated symbolism. It wasn't a haphazard daubing of gold, the kinatah motifs had meaning --- for instance, the singo barong is associated with warriors, just as the lion is associated with warriors in Hindu symbolism.

But all this went down the tubes when the kratons lost their power under Dutch colonial rule, and rich people outside the kraton decided it was OK to give themselves kinatah awards.

Hi David,

Thanks, the Kinatah i believe done probably after 1980's not very recent and definetely not done before 1900's. The execution / made is following the proper way for Kinatah workmanship and higher level of the quality from current maker for the last 10 years.
I'm still watching current Kinatah done these few years and will wait for few more years maybe to commision one :D


Indonesia has many good artist for Kinatah work and also wood carving. The problem with "all" artist i believe they only gives you the best when they are not under pressure (time frame limit, could be money, etc).

Alan, thank you for the information. One Collector also mentioned to me that Kinatah on the Gandik should follow certain design with the gonjo. Of course, there are not documented anywhere, this information is only coming from his years of collecting old Kinatah keris workmanship and is Limited to what he saw.

Regards

Rasjid

Yes Rasjid, I'm quite sure that the amount of leeway given to individual artists working according to kraton instructions would be pretty minimal. There might be a bit of tolerance to accommodate individual style and competence, but the kraton would definitely lay down what they wanted.

If a particular form should appear on the gandhik and gonjo, and the kraton was not happy with what was produced, you can bet it would have been sent back to do again and again, until they were happy.

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the detailed information. Have you got some pictures of representative specimens of the various and traditional types of kinatah to share with us? It would be great!
Regards

Jean, I think you know my principles in respect of publishing photos of my personal keris:- I simply do not do it. I consider this practice to be disrespectful and in bad taste. This is a personal standard and is not intended as criticism of what others may do.

I am happy to publish photographs of keris I intend to sell, but I do not intend to sell any of my old kinatah keris at the present time.

Sorry.

Alan,

When I read this line my first though was "Fascinating"! From my recent readings I can understand your position. I'll take this opportunity to thank you for pointing me in the right direction as far as my education.

Dan

Dan, I don't claim my position on this to be the "right" position, but it is my position, and one that I learnt from those who have taught me.

These Javanese people who taught me much of what I know would no more think of displaying a personal keris to the entire world than they would think of sprouting wings and flying. You put something on the net and it is there for the entire world to see.

A personal keris is something very close to one's own personality,one's own inner self, in Javanese culture and society it symbolises its owner. There is no secret about this. Its not select knowledge, everybody knows it, even most western collectors. Given that this is so, how can it be proper to display one's personal keris for unknown people to gaze upon?

But my background and education in keris is a little bit different to that of most people. Most collectors, even present day Javanese collectors consider the keris that they keep as objects, perhaps art objects, perhaps esoteric objects, perhaps objects that represent wealth or prestige, but very rarely as extensions of themselves. Thus, for people who look at keris in this way there is clearly nothing wrong with showing everybody what they have.

Its just a bit of a difference in attitude:- if people wish to display their keris for all the world to see, by all means, go ahead and do so. But don't ask me to follow.

Hi David,
I am talking about traditional kinatah.
I have seen (in books and museums) so many and different designs that it would be difficult for me to immagine that a kind of code may exist.
On the other hand I must recognize that a number of examples show (mainly on the ganja) that certain designs have been followed. I refer mainly to the designs of leaves and/or flowers, which, though different, follow an almost identical base design.
I do have a few specimens which have kinatah on the ganja only, on part of the blade or on the whole blade, but my poor culture on keris does not allow me to compress all designs in a number of rules.