On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres
 

I just came across a photo from the Military Museum in Barcelona, which shows an interesting display, featuring two of the mysterious "Berber" sabres and some other weapons, one of which is an espada ancha and the other one is a sword associated with Brazil, if I rememebr correctly.

Does this grouping provide further evidence that those so-called Berber sabres are actually a Spanish Colonial weapon, which comes from the Americas, instead of from the Maghreb as previously believed?

I have mentioned once that , while visiting Versailles, I saw a big oil painting in the Palace, depicting a battle between the French and the Arabs. In the right lower corner there was a figure of a Berber wielding the classical "berber" sabre, with a reverse point and a peculiar handle similar to what you show ( ## 2 and 3 from above in the grouping).
Regretfully, I did not have a camera with me but if any of you go there, please be better prepared:-)
Spain had colonies in N. Africa at the same time and waged war against the same Berbers as the French did. I am not surprised they lumped all the spoils of war in a single pile.

I'm always wary of assigning too much import to what anonymous museum curators put together in a given exhibit. Too often I think someone took a bunch of things they thought would look good together and put them all in a case... :shrug:

Well, I have one of those sabres with the inscription "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", which suggests a Caribbean, rather than a North African origin. And I remember that Jim has mentioned that these usually appear in groupings of weapons from Central America and Cuba.
I guess, unless we see a picture of someone wielding such a sabre, we will never know for certain.
I would prefer those to turn out to be from North Africa, but I am finding myself leaning entirely towards the New World.
Regards,
Teodor

Thank you so much for posting this Teodor!!! The subject of these weapons has often been a topic over many years and remains, along with others, somewhat unresolved. Tirri suggests these sabres are of Spanish Morocco regions, and when these first came into the collecting community nearing two decades ago, they were typically represented as Berber and of regions of the Rif.
The blades seem to invariably have had the curiously profiled tip, that was usually on a British M1796 light cavalry sabre blade. The guardless grip of course recalls the similar form of the eastern cousins of these, the flyssa of the Kabyles and contiguous Berber groups.
On these blades I have seen markings that suggest Spanish provenance, and after the Napoleonic campaigns in the Peninsula, there were considerable numbers of these British blades present that could easily have been sent to Spanish colonies in Morocco. There were also considerable numbers of the British patterns sent to Portugal.

Of further note, is that many of these sabres have turned up in groupings of Spanish colonial weapons, in Mexican collections, and there are suggestions of these being of Cuban and provenance to the America's. I would point out that the shellguard weapon at the top is of a form recently discovered to be an interesting amalgam of espada ancha and these types of sabres, now revealed to be the Brazilian form of these weapons. Note the niche at the top of the grip reflecting this characteristic in the well known Moroccan sa'if known as 'nimcha'.

I have seen suggestions of even associations with the decor of these sabres
to Indonesian and possibly Phillipine archipelagos, which may be supported by the trade and colonial routes of Spain.

Ariel, excellent note on that painting reflecting presence of these swords in use! I would love to see that painting, and as you well point out, Spain and France both had profound presence in these regions. I think one of the most puzzling factors concerning these 'Berber sabres' is that they are notably absent from all the comprehensive collections and resources on the arms of Morocco or North Africa. Charles Buttin, the highly esteemed collector and authority of weapons of the end of the 19th century and into the 20th has no example of these in his incredibly comprehensive catalog, nor are these seen in Holstein, Alain, Moser or other prominent collections.

There is the mystery...why? and we really need to reach the museums of Morocco and others in these regions to see if provenanced examples can be found.

All best regards,
Jim

Very well said Andrew!!
I have seen groupings of weapons lumped together completely incongruently by presumably responsible authorities, resulting in many of the unfortunate attributions that have plagued arms scholars for years. Case in point, the Calvert catalog "Spanish Arms and Armour" which perputuates these types of errors in a number of instances, especially the curious 'manople'.
Burton, in his "Book of the Sword" carries forth errors of Auguste Demmin (1877) and finally noted by Buttin in his work later published (1933).

The trophies/souveniers of one generation, often become grouped in estate sales by unknowledgable individuals and presumption, and classifications and provenance hopelessly lost. I have seen donations to European museums that piled African and even Asian weapons together, mostly in efforts at aesthetic or unusual groupings, leading more to identification travesties.

All the best,
Jim

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

Thank you Dmitry, great photos. As indicated in my earlier post these have been determined to be Brazilian from probably earlier part of 19th century. I have one of these which has a British blade of about this period, again leaning toward the entrance of these British blades onto Spanish trade sphere. It seems earlier research also has suggested a number of these unusual weapons are included in the relatively obscure armouries of these parts of the America's and Caribbean.

I have always hoped for North Africa too Teodor, but remain somewhat appeased by the fact that the trade connections between the Spanish colonies in North Africa and the America's are the denominator that seems to link these unusual weapons.

All best regards,
Jim

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

Pallas, now I remember that post! How completely strange to have that attribution and I wonder how they arrived at it?
Interesting , the blade on the one I referenced had the obscured stamped name (?) manu...suggesting manuel?

It seems that in Armi Bianchi Italiene I once found a blade with similarly profiled tip.....more mystery. Why would they duplicate a blade tip from Renaissance Italy ?

All best regards,
Jim

yes, the blade had "manuel" stamped or etched where the ricasso should have been (from what i remember, the blade dident have a ricasso) it also had a layer of rust on it

That was the exact location on my example.

Jim, what is the substantiation of attributing these pieces to Brazil?
{quote}

Dmitry,
I'll have to get out my notes, but there were some Spanish text articles as well as one of these sold with Imperial Auctions, identified and with Brazilian inscriptions on blade. I believe discussions with Juan Perez (?) as well...during espada ancha research when suggestions were made to a South American cousin to the northern frontier examples.

Do you have an interest in these? If you have other information I would really be interested to know, in the meantime I'll look into notes here.

all the best,
Jim

sorry I hit edit instead of respond.

Hi Dmitry,
Actually I have been researching Spanish colonial for many years, and sometimes it seems it has taken forever to finally break through with some of these weapons which remain anomalies in collections.

One of these shellguard espadas was among holdings of Imperial Auctions in 2008 I believe. My notes show that the blade was inscribed with the Imperial monogram and crest of Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (r.1831-1889). The hilt with the nock (cf. nimcha grip) the striated shellguard, and inner langet are virtually identical.

Years ago I was researching one of the strange munitions or blacksmith grade swords with exaggerated finger stalls, a reversed nock in the grip, which was cast brass, and an added espada ancha style shellguard and knuckleguard similar to this style but much smaller. I had been informed it had been found in Monterrey, Mexico, but found little to substantiate. Later examples were seen, also shown as Mexican, but in discussions with Pierce Chamberlain, he insisted these were from Cuba. Years later he called me and sent me photos of one from Spanish American war brought back from Cuba.

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.
While the first example shown has a coat of arms on the shell, another not in the article, but identical otherwise, has the same striations on its shellguard seen on these 'Brazilian' examples.

Another espada I researched, and looking for photos, has a shellguard with the same striations, but the guard is flat and perpandicular to blade, and the identical inner langet. The overall guard appears more in line with the espada ancha developed from early hangers, and the sword was represented as from the eastern Spanish colonies (Florida possibly Cuba), believed of probably late 18th century.

It seems that the striated patterns on these Spanish colonial shellguards occur from latter 18th, well into the 19th on these various forms of espada used in various ports of call on the Spanish Main of this period.
As always, more research to be done, but these are the results of well over twenty years done so far.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim, I am still not sold on the Brazilian attribution; some photos would be nice to see. I've read Juan Calvo's article on the Guanabacoa and other machetes, and saw, but was too slow to buy, a wonderful example at a gun show a couple of years back. It was of similar construction as the ones in Calvo's article, except the hilt was done in sterling silver with mother of pearland gold incrustations. It was a really high end piece.

Here are the photos of the one I have in my collection. Even though, like I said, it's not my area of collecting, this particular piece just oozes Colonial Latn America, and is very expressive, so it's on my wall for now. I have not been successful in finding anything on the blade-maker Breffit in my literature. Could be an Englishman who set up shop in Havana [or Rio, for that matter].

Hi Dmitry,
I agree on specifying Brazil for the type overall based on one example with sound provenance, but I think it must be accepted that these striated shellguards are of Spanish attribution in locations included in its trade centers in the Caribbean, Florida, Central America and South America. I will see if I can get the photos of the Brazilian example to post.

Thanks for the photos of yours, one of the nicer examples I've seen, great motif. The name of the maker on mine was 'Isaac' I think, cant recall now but definitely British and was not found in British registers either. These guys may well have been importers of blades in these areas?

All best regards,
Jim

Back to the topic of the mystery sabres, this one finished today on eBay. Hoepfully the buyer is someone from this forum:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

The scabbard appears to be very un-Spanish IMHO . :shrug:
I can't think of a use for the terminal end ;it seems more tribally oriented . :confused:

The scabbard on these are very unusual, and the perpandicular projection is very much like the shotel scabbards seen in Spring. I am unclear on the purpose of the projection, and this seems atypical for anything in the Moroccan regions of North Africa, but the scabbard style seems consistant.

I have seen the 'South Seas'; Indonesian and Caribbean suggestions along with the standing 'Berber' attribution, which remains unsubstantiated.
As I have mentioned many times over the years, I have yet to see these represented in any collective material on weapons of Morocco and North Africa...it is as if they came out of nowhere!

Why the 'Ethiopian' (?) style scabbard, what is the upright extension at the tip for, why are the blades always profiled in this manner, what is the stylized 'flyssa'(?) type grip supposed to represent.

In my opinion, the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th century, and its trade routes that continued through the independence of Mexico from Spain, The Mexican-American War, and into the period of the Spanish American War, account for a myriad of the mysterious weapons that have been appearing in collections in recent times. Many of these are 'bringbacks' from the Spanish American War.
The 'Main' was prevalent in early 19th century in the Caribbean, Florida, Cuba, Mexico's gulf ports, Central America and South America....the outermost extension, the Philippines. To the East, the connections to Spain and its North African colonies are of course part of this vast network.

Most of these unusual weapons I have seen seem to have either Mexican provenance as far as appearing in groups of these weapons, or as items stated with Cuban or South American provenance.
I have often considered that it would be most tempting to suggest this unusual profile to the tip of these British or European military blades reminds me of the tip of the kampilan, free association at best, but still, seems plausible.

Best regards,
Jim

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Whoa! Jeff you are amazing!!! Thats gotta be it, fits perfect as far as I can see. Never even thought of that, so once again the Spanish colonial presence is suggested.

All the best,
Jim

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

Jeff,
I thought I saw the same thing, as there seems to be an O before the M, which fits nicely with the motto. Without having the sword at hand, I can only agree that this is most likely traces from the popular Spanish motto.
By now, there is plenty of evidence which suggests that these sabres are indeed Spanish colonial weapons, but as Jim keep pointing out, Spain had a lot of colonies.
I am uploading the auction pictures here for future reference.
Thank you Jeff, Jim and Wolf,
Teodor

Exactly Wolf, thats what these were once thought to be about when I got mine back c. 1995, and the Rif was the attribution. However as these began to turn up over the years, no substantiation for this could be found. I think what did it for me was a discussion with several colleagues, including Dominique Buttin (whose Grandfather Charles lived in Morocco, and whose weapon collections from these regions are quite comprehensive), and the consensus seemed to agree likely Spanish colonial regions.

Actually, these heavy blades and the guardless hilts, as well as the opening which may well be for lanyard or sword knot, seem to lend well to the idea of machetes, which were a utility weapon prevalent in many of the colonies.
The Spanish colonial espada ancha (= wide heavy blade) in Mexico's frontiers eventually developed into a machete type weapon as well, in areas of heavy desert vegetation. In northern regions of plains it became more of a hunting/Bowie knife.

It also would be hard to imagine that these might not have appealed to the famed Barbary Pirates in certain cases, as they were certainly present in those days of the Spanish Main, just as you have noted Wolf.

All best regards,
Jim

i found another picture of the "corsican cavalry saber" and "manuel deje" was the entire inscription etched on the ricasso.

Thank you so much Pallas! I wonder if the 'deje' is a term , does not seem like a name or it would be capitalized right?
Any Spanish translators out there that can help?

Best regards,
Jim

Here are some more pictures of the sword, which I have been lucky enough to acquire. These swords are on the shorter side, and this particular one is quite light as well, especially compared to my other mystery/berber sabre.
Now, onto the identification.
The blade most certainly has NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON - worn off a bit, but still there. Interestingly, the second part of the popular Spanish motto is missing - it is not on the other side of the blade, just nowhere to be found.
The cloth baldric has faded, so I doubt anyone would be able to use it to point to the sword's origin.
The scabbard is of a peculiar construction - instead of two symmetric wooden halves, it has just one, from the decorated side. The side, which would press against the body has been left undecorated. Does anyone recognize the scabbard decoration?
Finally, it is a full tang construction, kind of like a machete. There is file work on the spine of the tang, which reminds me of something - I think of the brass spacers on the hilt of an Albacete dagger?
Hopefully, the pictures will help someone to come up with an idea based on the various elements and their decoration. Given how I now have two of these sabres with Spanish mottos, have I inadvertently crossed into Spanish colonial weapons?
Best regards,
Teodor

Interesting speculations. As I recall, Jim, when I identified that hilt as belonging to a Machete de Guanabacoa and refered to the article from José Luis Calvó, I did not mention that the machete were from Toledo. It must be pointed that the spanish mottos do not imply a spanish manofacture of the blade, but a spanish colonial presence. José Luis Calvó very clearly states that those blades used in the machetes of Guanabacoa were originally made in Germany and USA with spanish inscriptions, and latter they were made in Toledo as a reglamentary weapons of the spanish colonial army, but I think they were mounted probably in Cuba anyway. Guanabacoa is a village near from La Habana, with a strong african presence those days. This ethnic element is the common feature among this hilts discussed here, since this type of sabres are characterized mainly by the hilt, though there can be found blades with a reverse tip. It must be mentioned that the african presence is also strong in Brazil, a lot more than the spanish commerce in that ex-portuguese colony in the 19th Century.

But there are some distinctive differences among the above swords. One of them, very obvious, is the presence or absence of a guard, the latter a feature alien to the spanish swords. My own speculation: those swords were made with european blades, but not exclusively, and mounted with handles in a style which has a strong african flavor. The presence of spanish mottos could mean blades imported from or taken to the spanish. Other blades in the same type of swords, or customized variations in the blades and hilts (in the machetes of Guanabacoa, for example), could mean personal preferences or availability of blades from a specific origin. The same style of weapon can have blades from different origins, customized or not latter by the owner. The important thing here is the style of hilt with it´s guard, and in the case of the so called berber swords, the presence of the reverse point, which must be explained in terms of style or in terms of availability of specific blades with this characteristic. I believe the sword from Teodor has an european blade with a history, but it came in some way to non european hands and mounted or remounted in the actual style. It could be made for the American market and at the end not sold, used or exported there, but elsewhere. The spanish inscription does not mean a spanish manofacture.

Ariel´s reference is important. It gives the first substancial proof that the sword is, or could more probably be, north african. Another point: the machete of Guanabacoa is a reglamentary spanish military weapon. There is no evidence that the´berber sword´is. This brings me the idea that the latter is an opportunistic use of whatever available sabre blade mounted in a special local style, not specifically ´colonial´, but during the colonial wars.

Regards
Gonzalo G

Interesting points, Gonzalo, thank you for your response. I was hoping you will chime in, as your expertise on Central American and Spanish colonial weapons in general could be very helpful here.

If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that these swords, known until recently as "berber" due to a Tirri attribution, are not regimental. I fully agree, as they vary considerably in their shape and size. You also point out the African flavor of the hilt and scabbard decoration, which I also agree with, and this is not surprising considering the large African population in many of the New World colonies, especially in the Carribean.

I am wondering, could these sabres simply be sabres preferred by irregulars in the Spanish army, mostly of African descent, from the Carribean? My other sword with its motto obviously referring to the Dominican Republic would support this.

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

Now, the Riffian sword in the Versailles painting is most intriguing, and I have no doubt that Ariel knew what he saw. However, a painting is a work of art, and I would prefer to see a picture of Riffian warriors with such swords, before I am convinced that this is indeed a Riffian weapon.

Regards,
Teodor

Dmitry, I love your Brazilian (until proven otherwise!) cutlass. It is similar, but superior to my example. Not to divert the subject away from the Berber sabers, but as far as the Brazilian goes, I don't think there is much question that they aren't at least Spanish colonial if not specific to the Brazilian region.

Jim, I had also seen that saber with Pedro II's coat-of-arms. It was spot-on. The only thing was the timeline...later period than I would have suspected, but then again, many of the Spanish broadswords were used over many centuries. I tried to track it down again to no avail.

Dmitry's sword has that distinctive snake design on the finial we've discussed before on espada. I just saw a nice espada for sale on a website with the same pattern, but because it was an active sale, I didn't list it here (I am assuming a sale item and an active auction are considered the same??).

The Brazil sabers seem to have two distinct types of blades- straight (or nearly straight) and the classic curved type. I'm wondering what these swords were ultimately used for? Horseman's sabers? Cutlass in the many coastal ports? The pattern obviously was repeated, yet not a "model" used by any military or militia, apparently. Not trying to offend anyone, but I'm having trouble envisioning anyone riding around in the jungle or pampas on horseback with these strapped to their side. True, horseman's sabers could be rather large, but the guard seems more cutlass-like (what, me biased :D ).
The folded stirrup on these seems to indicate one worn on the side, like the smaller espada. So...was it like an infantry-type sword? I'm just struggling trying to imagine HOW the sword was put to use in this environment if not as the classic ship-board pattern.

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

The picture was made by a friend of mine, who visited the Military Museum in Montjuic a year ago - I just noticed it recently among all the rest of the pictures. Unfortunately, he has not made any pictures of labels. :shrug:

I will be going to Barcelona in a month. Unfortunately, I read that the museum was closed permanently in May of this year. Part of the collection may have been transferred to Girona, and if true, I will try to visit there as well, as I am also very curious to see how these swords are identified.

If one of the Spanish members is reading this, please let me know where all the weapons from the Barcelona Military Museum are to be found now.

Best regards,
Teodor

Well, I have to check, but IIRC the collection was indeed supposedly set to be moved to the Figueres Castle (in the province of Girona, but not in Girona city itself, just to clarify), bit I think it's still far from being actually on display there.
I'll confirm before you leave, though. :)

Best,

Marc

Thanks a lot Marc.

Continuing with my post in home and not knowing if somebody made a response to my comments meanwhile, I would like to add some more
commentaries. First, the fact that Morocco was not a colony until the
20th Century. Of course, there were wars and temporal occupation of
some ports by spanish and portuguese. In the 15th Century the portuguese occupied four ports and the spanish one, but were defeated and expelled latter. The war of 1859-60 against Spain ended with a treaty by which the sultan of Morocco gave to the spaniards the coastal area in the north of the country. It was a war to spoil Morocco of the ports, not to colonize it, in the same way that Gibraltar is not a colony, but a military post. The Rif berbers were not subjugated until the decade of 1930´s (with great loses to the spaniards).

So, of what colonial weapons are we talking about when refering to the
berbers? To beging with, what is a colonial weapon? The answer seems
obvious, but is not. Anytime I see this concept (colonial weapon), is
associated with european colonization. Which seems to be another
ethnocentric misunderstanding. Why never a yataghan from Greece or the Balkans is called 'colonial'? Colonialism is not a phenomenon exclusive of the capitalist countries, as feudal Portugal and Spain demonstrates. And so the historians writte of greek or carthaginean colonies in Europe. This is not off-topic, since the concept must be clarified, as it is taken in loan from the social sciences and sometimes used too liberally.

I understand as colonial weapons, those made by the colonial powers,
specifically in the colonies, by the colonial settlers or by the 'natives' undertheir direction. Or made exclusively for colonial uses. This does not include the weapons not made specifically in this way, as the colonial powere manofactured their weapons in the metropolis for purposes not exusively or specifically related with the colonies, but with their general military needs. Brazil (remember the 'brazilian' sword?), is independent since 1822, and Spain had a little presence there, if any, since that was an area under the influence of the Great Britain, and before, a portuguese colony which was not allowed to commerce with anybody but Portugal. America had not ports of call, for the spaniards, except Cuba, since around 1820-22,
including the Dominicana Republic. The blade on the berber sabre from Teodor was made after the independence of this country from Spain,
which give us a time span for this weapon. The machete of Guanabacoa is another history.

The weapons made by the 'natives' using 'trade blades', or blades taken in war from the colonial enemy, are not 'colonial', in the same way the saifs made with 'trade blades' from the persians are not 'colonial', nor the firangis from India are.

Would it be causal that the european (most probably) painter whose work was mentioned by Ariel represented the berber sabre ALSO confused with an american sword? Not likely. Too much distance and the relative ignorance in Europe about the late evolution of the american weapons, makes it very unprobable (such a coincidence!). I think the swords from the spanish museum and the painting in Versailles are enough proof, since the curators also can be right about how to classify a sword, mainly if they are from a country which colonized the berber area of the Rif (well, on the other side, this is not a garantee, in this case). Those are hard evidences dreserving to be taked on account.

I insist. As there were european influences, so there were african influences over all the countries which enslaved african people. When they were taken, they came to stay, with all the cultural and racial implications this carries. Republica Dominicana and Haiti are in the same little island, only divided by a political frontier. Their culture is strongly black. Papa Doc used the vodoo to dominate his people in Haiti just decades ago. Also this are the cases of Cuba and Brazil. Berbers surely had also decorative influences from the territories to their south. And they were also enslavers and slave traders. Mutual influences could perfectly be developed. We know a just a few from them, as far as I can see.
Regards

Gonzalo G

I just saw your post, Teodor. Yes, you have a point. I don´t ignore this features in the machete of Guanabacoa. You can see more like this here:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

Anyway, the history and details related with this weapon are not really known. Checking the manofacture of the blades, since I wrotte from memory my first post, shows the presence of Toledo blades on this machetes from the beginning. They could be used as blade of opportunity, or manofactured purposedly for this model, we don´t know. You have to take on account, also, that this machetes were not developed as weapons, but mainly as tools due to the dense vegetation on the island of Cuba. Maybe this is another factor to take on account in order to explain the absence of a guard. But I think this is not the case of the berber sabres, which clearly are a cavalry weapon used mainly fight.

Still, the absence of a guard is not a common feature in the spanish swords and this machete is precisely a proof of the validity of my arguments, though I can be mistaken. I believe this kind of weapon-tool was developed for the units called "Pardos" (because of their brown color, as they were blacks and half breed), but not exclusively, though the type of decoration which can be found in some blades seems very...un-spanish. As it can be understood, this machetes were originally designed and developed in Cuba, and apoved by the local authorities in the 1850´s decade, and latter adopted officially by the spanish army overseas in the 1890´s decade. I think the design originally has a strong african flavor, and at some point a guard was added in some variants. So, the construction of the handle and the absence of guard are not characteristically spanish.

Please check the spanish military weapons, and hardly you will find a machete (or any other sword) without guard and with this construction (if any). If you don´t understand spanish, there are plenty of illustrations in the articles from José Luis Calvó. You can save them and study the models of spanish military weapons which appear in this articles in PDF. At least, you will understand the name of the models and the dates.


On the other side, I am not expert in anything related with swords, just a student. But I studied history, and I like to relate swords, technology and history (including economic history or history of the economy) as different faces of the same phenomenon.

Please excuse my mistakes, but I am always is a hurry due lack of time online.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo,

All excellent points, as usual. I agree that the term "colonial" may have been used too freely here, something of which I am certainly guilty of.

I still do not see how a Balkan yataghan could be a colonial weapon though, because a colony implies a settlement or territory divided from the mother state by an obstacle, natural or other. The Ottoman Empire was contiguous, and its Balkan possessions under imemdiate control and access from the capital of Istanbul. I really do not see any similarities to the Spanish Empire here - maybe Tunis would have been a better analogy.

Another thing I need to point out is that in my opinion, the short length of these sabers, similar to that of a cutlass, would not make them great cavalry weapons. To me they seem much better suited for fighting on foot, or maybe even intended for a naval use.

I agree with the rest of your points. However, after re-reading your posts, I am still not sure what is your take on the origins of these sabres. I am sure you must have a hypothesis of your own, but to me it remains unclear.

Best regards and thank you for your participation,
Teodor

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again. :(

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Thank you very much for confirming that the Barcelona Miliatry Museum is closed, so that I can plan my vacation properly.
Best regards,
Teodor

Teodor, the term ´colonial´seems to be very laxus. The greek and cartaghinean colonies were only cities established as commercial settlements. They were nearer from the metropili than the balkans from Istambul, or at least there were similar distances. The idea of settlements established by a conqueror in other continent, is similar, since Africa and the Balkans are not in the same continent as the Ottoman metropoli. But in all case, I was not intending a precise comparison, it was just a reference.

Maybe I passed without looking the dimensions of those sabres. In some way the description from Ariel evoked to me, in my quick reading, a cavalry-like image, but it was my mistake. This is the reason why I feel important to know the exact measures of the weapons exposed in this forum, and also the weight, point of balance, thickness, geometry of the blade, etc.

In relation with the sabre: my feeling is that those sabre were made, among others, with european blades, and with the references form the spanish and french museums, I am inclined to think that the best hypothesis, in view of the available evidences, is that those sabres were more probably north african. I can add no more, since all the references I can find in internet point in this direction. I have not bibliography over the subject, but as soon I have more information I will writte to you.
Regards

Gonzalo