Photgraphy Question regarding Ivory Kris
 

there seems to be a flurry of moro weapons thread lately, and although this is about a moro kris, this is more in the realm of the unexplained.
it has been a habit of mine taking pictures of every weapon i own. i reckon it's a good insurance, and when i do sell or trade it in the future, in essence, i still have a part of it. although my collection changes every so often, every weapon that i've owned, at the least, i have a record of it.
when i acquired this kris, it wasn't anything spectacular, only that it was originally owned by a certain charlie woodruff, who, according to his decendant, spent some time in the southern part of the philippines during the philippine american war.
as i've mentioned, there's nothing spectacular about it: a straight blade with nicks here and there denoting it has seen some action. the pommel is your typical ivory, although what's odd is the wrapping, which is rattan. you would think a more expensive wrapping would be used. it does have some talismanic symbols on the blade, but unlike what we've seen here lately where it's vague and up for guesswork and late night conversations. no, the symbols are straight up bad juju stuff, solomon rings, etc, etc, and some faded kawi or jawi writings, however you wanna call it. whoever originally owned this meant serious business.
now here's where the unexplained part comes in. please bear with me on this cause it sounds crazy. for the life of me, i can't get a clear picture of it. i've taken countless pics (rechargeable batteries are my new best friends) and i just can't get a decent clear picture of the sword. yes, the camera is on a tripod and the subject is laid flat on the floor. i've taken pictures of another sundang prior to this, and also a panabas after and they both came out fine, clear as could be. when i took the pictures, it was taken all at the same day. there has to be a scientific explanation to this as i'm a pretty logical person. i think it could be the exposure, or even the reflection from the blade that is doing this. these pictures are actually the best ones that came out; on some of them it was just a blob. but anyhow, hopefully, some of our members that delve on photography can explain this; meanwhile enjoy the 'blurry' pictures. btw, are there anyone here that can read kawi? is wilked (dan) still in sulu? are you still here, dan? not sure if ths is sama or tausug.
here are the pictures:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/0bccd327.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/0df9f72f.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/bcf940c4.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/d47dbfa2.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/0f3d7966.jpg

Logical possibillities .....the 'firmware' (the operating programme of the digital camera) could be 'corrupted' which could cause intermediate problems or conceivably certain items/subjects (because of colouring, lighting conditions etc etc) may result in poor pictures. If the 'part ' of the firmware corrupted relates to say 'automatic lighting adjustments' then it is quite likely a reflective surface/colour may highlight the 'fault', yet another 'subject' may not.

Non-Logical possibilities....there has been documented cases where some objects/people photograph poorly....irrespective of the camera used.
I will try and dig them up......needless to say...supernatural explainations were offered as science had none (at the time)....starting to get a bit like a X-file........Mulder....if you're out there ;)

Hey Ron, why don't you pay me a visit in Cincinnati and let me have a crack at it? Afterall, it is what i do for a living. :shrug:
I would say that if i have similar results we can go with the "non-logical possibilities". :eek: :)
Anyway, you know the number, give me a call. And if you come bring your camera as well. If there is something wrong with it i might be able to figure it out. :)

yo david, that's an excellent idea! i definitely need a second, even a third opinion on this. i was actually planning on taking this kris with me on vacation and use my sis's camera, but your plan sounds even better. yes, if you don't mind, i would love to get together this coming winter as i have a lot of down time then. work normally slows down after christmas. with your interest in photog and paranormal, this would be very interesting. i'll definitely take that offer!

as far as the jawi writings, maybe dan can chime in. with luck, he should still be in sulu and have one of the locals translate this for us.


katana, that's a plausible explanation, as far as the firmware acting up. but what i can't explain is why would the swords prior and after this kris came out normally. in regards to non-logical possibilities: i've never heard of that. in this side of explanation, it's weird that i find my dreams lately being so vivid. perhaps just a coincidence....

While I am of a definite esoteric bend of mind, I am not prone to believe in the "supernatural." Having said that, it is very intriguing that it seems to be only this piece that is affected, and that it is affected in every shot, whether full or close-up. If it were some firmware problem or tricking of the autofocus by a fortuitous combination of color, light and dark, I would have expected different effects with different overall compositions.

Maybe you were just especially excited about this piece, and couldn't keep still? ;)

there's no doubt in my mind i was especially excited, mark. it's not too often one comes across a moro weapon with talismanic symbols, but to acquire a kris with talismanic symbols and jawi writings (spell perhaps?), engraved on the blade is enough to jack my excite factor from 2 to 9 in the scale of 1-10 :D


i'm still not ruling out the firmware, but like i mentioned on my original post, the camera was mounted on a tripod.

Very interesting,why not try to take a picture with both items, the one that will take a good picture and the one that is blurred when you try? In other words have two or more items in the picture, just to see if both will be blurred.
Gene

Hi Ron, I'd like to think that is the "supernatural" that made this, but first try with the camera on the tripod, as you already have done, but with the self-timer mode in capture, because sometimes, even if you use the tripod, when you shot the photo the picture is not clear. Just a guess (but I really hope that is the supernatural :D)

I like it - would not mind having one with talismanic and jawi myself......good luck both of you (Mabuting Kapilaran!).

Repost them please if possible.....be nice to those anitos....... :D

mare, great idea! i'll try that experiment. should be interesting. battara, do you think the jawi is tausug or sama, and is it possible that it could be an oraciones?

Mare's idea ia a good one. :)
Ron, what is the meaning of "oraciones"? :shrug:

"oraciones" is a like a talismanic prayer.

Spunjer, not sure, though would not be surprised if it were Tausug. Yes I think it would more likely be an oracion and then if not, a Qur'anic quote.

ok guys, this is creeping me out:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/272a138f.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/2f127009.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/401112d8.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/552ce456.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/628f58e3.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...n/9f406e6a.jpg

im gonna borrow my sis's camera. and try this one more time.

oraciones = kinda like abracadabra. what battara said.

Very nice moro kris I have litle similar sign s on an mandau


Ben

OK Ron, i'm intrigue. You really have to let me have a crack at this baby before winter. I know you are busy with work, but how about next weekend? ;) :rolleyes: :D
In the meantime, can you give me a few technical details.
So, you shot this on a tripod, right? What were the camera settings, i.e. ISO, shutter speed and aperture? What is the light source and at what time of day?
So if i am able to take a sharp picture of this kris does that mean it wants to come live with me? ;) :p :D

Spunjer,
I have an offer you can't refuse for the anting-anting kris.
Remember the Katipunan flag?

Spunger,
Sorry I've been AWOL here. I recognize that kris of yours...I know it well. PM, email, or text me on my Philippine cell# and we can discuss that kris of yours. There's some bad karma associated with your kris and unfortunately I can't discuss this on a public forum.

Ingat 'tol,

Z

david,

definitely would love to get with you sooner, but we're going on vacation the next couple weeks. will be back on the 11th. but yeah, we definitely need to get ASAP! would like to have a non biased opinion on this...


labantayo,

lol, that's a very tempting offer, but i really like to enjoy this kris for awhile... but then again, i've seen some of your toys, and now that i got your attention... you got pm...


zel,

wassup bro! long time no hear! noticed you haven't been active here for awhile. the original owner mentioned he talked to another filipino prior to selling this sword to me and he did mentioned about the 'bad karma' stuff the filipino mentioned. so was that you? i try to be level headed, but now it looks like i'm starting to get the creeps, lol.
anywho, last time we corresponded you mentioned about you were in the verge of finalizing your book, Aming Sundang (Our Sword). i know you were trying to iron out some differences with ateneo de davao press. how's everthing coming along on that? would the book be available here in the states, or would that just gonna be released in the philippines? inquiry mind wanna know...
email me, brad:
spiderguard77@yahoo.com
pm's on the way as well...

Though this is more often a concern for Javanese and Balinese keris, I would suspect that Moro kris might also move on their own. This could account for the blurry pictures.

I would suggest a large cover with substantial Hebew and Javanese power symbols (since you mention SOLOman) to be sure that this kris does not carry out nocturnal missions. Be careful!


http://planetsmilies.net/ill-violate...miley-5387.gif

Spunger,
Yo bro! Email has been sent in regards to that kris of yours. If you find it too cryptic and want to talk about it, we can set up a time and discuss it over SKYPE or Yahoo messenger...just email or text me when a good time is with you and I can clear my schedule. Try also to get hold of Mabagani; I think he also knows about the macabre history of your kris and knows some people in the states that can help you out. Unfortunately, I believe he was banned on this forum so if you don't have any contact info on him let me know. He's probably your best resource in these matters.

As far as the book is concerned...It's done. It's just a matter of what I want to include or leave out. And right now I'm debating whether I should publish it or not. If I do publish, it's going to be an extremely limited run and only available in the Philippines. I'll let you know if it happens and save you a copy...I already had you on the list ;). I do have it as a MS Word document and as a PDF....but it's huge....over 300 pages and 200 photos and diagrams. LabanTayo has a copy of that, but I told him not to share it with anyone. Let me know if you're interested and I'll text him.

Regards,

Z

Hi Zel,

Congratulations on finishing your book. Assume it has to do with Filipino weapons, also hopefully culture, history, art, religion and all the integral parts of your wonderful culture.

Also good to see you and others posting again.

Though I have recently gotten a few pieces, like a good 19th c S. Philippines, Mindanao, Bagobo shield, (It is missing the top bar, may have Arjan/Mandaukudi, or Battara make one for me) I have been thinking about studying another culture because there is so little good information on the PI.

Seriously thinking abut selling some of my PI weapons --- the lower end pieces --- and getting into Nihonto. If this happens, I'll be posting PI in the Swap Forum.

Good luck with your book. With your knowledge and experience it should be a welcome addition.

Hi Spunjer
 

Sorry I got in late on this...

These things just creep me out. I would say "Awesome Kris, let me know if you want to get rid of it," but after what happen with the last ivory hilt I got... my wife will not let get another one. :( I am serious. Dude, treat it with respect.

Hey Zelbone!

Long time no hear... I hope you are doing well! Keep me in mind too. :)

sorry, took awhile to respond, but i was trying to adjust with time change.

bill, not sure about that. but what i keep going back to was what a maranao told me when i inquired about the esoterics: swords with strong talismanic symbols were meant for their original owner, once in someone else's possession of another it sets off a curse. but i guess that's what makes these collection so interesting sometimes; the stories that goes with it. to counter it with another hocus focus won't help explain the unknown. i realize there's a lot of stuff out there we don't know about, reason i try to keep an open mind.

one thing for sure tho; my family haven't slept this peacefully in awhile. but i must attribute that to being on vacation... :)

Iron fillings test
 

Spunjer;
Have another idea, I just did an Iron filling test on a dagger I just got see;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4979
Why not try it on your blade? If there is energy emitting form the blade I would think it would have an associated magnetic field around it as well. You might want to test it with a compass ( I have a good supply :) first just to see if it would change directions.
Gene

WOW! Demonic forces are universal. The exact same thing happens with all Kilijs and shashkas. If you have any, for the love of God and your families send them to me for safe keeping.

Jeff

Spunger,
Sorry I couldn't answer your text more promptly, but you texted my US phone which I left back in the city. Try my SMART phone next time. Anyways, I got your detailed email and hopefully the information I sent you will help you sleep better. Hope you found the history of the kris "interesting." I think you'll need Mabagani's help with this. He could at least point you in the right direction. You may also need the assistance of "the quiet one."

But honestly, I don't think the information will help you. You may need to take a trip with it to Siasi...if you can get there. Otherwise maybe an albularyo can help you. Again, seek the "quiet one." Just the other day I had to seek an albularyo to excorcise an old binangon and plamenko with a "special" blade that I picked up in Lambunao (you're Ilongo....you know what I mean ;) ) The family that gave it to me claims they have the blood of an aswang staining the blades and it's been giving them bad luck since. A visit to the albularyo took care of that and oraciones and talismans were engraved on the blades by a panday with the supervision of the albularyo. I'll send you some pics when I get a decent WiFi signal or at an internet cafe.

Regards,

Zel

PS...Sorry I have to correspond through here, bro. Getting my email can be spotty at times, but somehow I can log into here. Sorry for the inconvenience. I'll be deep jungle for a few days....just text me on my SMART phone. Ingat 'tol!

Well, I wouldn't put it under my pillow. I have a few pieces that I keep outside my home, but since I live in a warehouse, they are still secure.

I understand that many shaministic pieces from various cultures can contain spirits, Jen, that were attached to their original owners. It is believed that without the proper rituals to keep them happy and in place, they can become problems.

In some cultures these pieces were destroyed or substantially damaged/altered in order to release the spirits, or at least make the pieces unusable by other people.

Some Indonesian keris have been taken out to sea and thrown into deep water. I don't suggest you do this with a beautiful artifact like you have, but this could also be an alternative.

Not knowing the original history of your kris -- though I strongly sense that someone you know does know a great deal about its "past life" -- (just a feeling I have) I would take the suggestions of Zel and especially Mabagani, whom I greatly respect, and do what they say.

In my past delving into metaphysical matters that began to get "hot," I was impressed by the Jesuits. They have some powerful exorcism rituals, and they know how to use them. But I have only experienced this in regard to them exorcising people.

All things happen for a reason, and God never works on only one person at a time. I wish you and yours peace and understanding.

It is good to have you posting again.

It is good to hear from both of you. Zel.....please keep me in mind as well on your book... :D

Zel, great to hear you're planning on publishing. :cool: It's a shame it will be such a limited run. Frankly, I'd be happy to pay handsomely for a book like you've described, and I'm sure you would have many potential customers in the States. :shrug:

NOW YOU'VE ALL GONE AND...
 

Piqued my curiosity!

C'mon, give!

hi bsmstar,
i think there's a limit with what i want to have, versus the safety of my love ones. i'm still waiting on labantayo's response...

zel,
got ur text and tried calling you last night but forgot about the half day time difference, lol. you mentioned siasi. but why siasi? clearly, this is a classic tawi-tawi piece. the only siasi connection i can get from this is the handle type and style, unless of course... anyways, the albularyo or babaylan as we call them, angle sounds good, but the best ones i know are from tanduyan in ajuy, iloilo. even then, it's been awhile. also, dunno about them messing with moro hocus focus tho. i got an idea: why can't i just send this over there to you, and perhaps do the necessary thing? i'm looking at 2, perhaps 3 years before i get to visit again. i really hate to inconvinience the quiet one for something petty like this. btw, yeah, i've already contacted mabagani in regards to this. pm me or leave a message what would be a good time and date that i can call you.

mare rosu,
i've been reading that thread with interest, and would definitely like to try that. here's another cool one i tried with this sword: if you have a flourescent tube light, and with a dimmer switch, try set the switch to the lowest level. now place the sword next to the tube. now gently slide it against the tube and watch the light dance. might be an old trick with the veteran collectors, but nevertheless, found this out by accident. pretty neat trick, lol.

bill,
you said:

therein lies the problem. if one has to believe the esoteric side of these swords, to really know it intimately, rather than it looks neat and it belong to these group of warriors, then we must delve deeper into it. unfortunately, the most knowledgeable members (plural) who actually travelled and studied these weapons on both the physical and metaphysical aspects of it are no longer here. to haphazard some mumbo jumbo ritual without knowing what's going on is akin to placing me in the cockpit of a 747 just because i know how to drive a car and they both have steering wheels and speedometer. it's easy to bring up the indonesian train of thought in this matter. as a matter of fact, i've been following the thread "of keris and spirits" on the other page with great interest. ah, but these two aren't quite the same, as even the mods clearly shows that they don't belong in the same category. even among the bisayans in the philippines, the babaylan will have a totally different ritual than a manughilot, another local medicine man. so my thinking is, without knowing the proper method, why take a chance. for all i know, i could be doing the opposite i really didn't want to see, lol. all that aside, my western upbringing says there's a logical reasoning behind all of these; a scientific explanation, but my eastern background keeps nagging me as to why i try to reason an eastern object with a western way of thinking.
as far as jesuits go:
this jesuit hocus focus sword is not helping me any, lol.

Since much of this conversation involves nudges,winks and allusions to certain secret individuals and privilaged occult information which no one seems prepared to share with the entire class i would think that a great deal of this thread would probably be more appropriate to the medium of PM. ;) :)

Why do you think that is? What does it tell you about the nature of magic? ;) :D

Agreed. Unsubscribing from thread. :shrug: :cool: ;) :shrug:

lol, those secret individuals wouldn't be so much of a secret have they still have the means to answer me directly in this forum, but i believe they were banned for good? i could be wrong tho... in regards to the "privileged occult information", i was under the impression that zelbone's step by step advice on what to do was pretty much cut and dry. or was it the fact that a lot of native terms were being used? can't be that: keris forum uses a lot of vernacular terms.



david, you asked me:



there's a couple ways I can answer these questions. one would be to just touch upon the shallow level and take it as rethorical questions with an ever slight hint of my ignorant medieval eastern belief and now i'm being enlightened by a bright western mind, which is one level of your question, or i can take it a little deeper and pretend those are legitimate questions. for the sake of some friendly banter, lemme try and answer them.

on the first one, you asked me "why do you think that is?" well, let me present to you this example: here in the western world, a person that has psychological problems either go to a psychiatrist or a psychologist. or you got a bad back, so you go see a chiropractor. now why do you think that is?

onto the next question, you asked me; " what does that tell you about the nature of magic?" dave, it tells me that if i know just the tip of it's nature, i won't be here yakking; rather, i'd be somewhere standing in line for some mega million lotto....


btw, what happen to my avatar?

No one needs this forum as a "means to answer you directly." You all know each other well, and I assume have each other's e-mail addresses, if not mailing addresses and phone numbers.

The only explanation I come up with for making this comment, and indeed for the off-topic bend this thread has taken, is trolling. That is unacceptable.

People get banned here NOT because of who they are, or where they live, or in what they believe. They get banned for failing to adhere to the basic rules and guidelines of the forum. Period. We give warnings when people get out of line, but not indefinitely.

Enough silliness. Thread closed.

PS: As for the avatar, since it did not relate to edged weapons, and did not appear to be an actual picture of the member, it was changed.