Talismanic symbols on moro kris blades gallery!
 

Hi All!

I thought it would be nice to start a thread about moro krisses, only with talismanic symbols/inlay in the blade.
Hopefully forummembers would like to participate and add pieces of their krisses, to make this an interesting thread!

Rg,
Maurice

Sulu kris.
 

Sulu kris, with the blade full of silver talismanic inlay.

Here is one of mine that has silver inlay of a stylized crocodile on both sides of the blade. This is a Maguindanao piece with ivory, silver, and swassa.

Here is another Maguindanao piece of mine with Maguindanao okir engraved into both sides of the blade. The hilt is swassa over copper and MOP.

I have seen ukkil of vines and flowers, chevron lines, half circles that I believe are placed for purely decorative purposes and I have seen symbols of circles, stars, tridents, cresents, prayers that have magical and protective meanings or purposes.

Where does decorative end and the talismanic symbols start?
Is it up to one's interpretation?

Kino, that is a good point.

I am sure that the "X"s on Maurice's blade are talismanic and I know that the stylized crocodile on one of my blades is talismanic. Remember that some talismanic designs are made of okir.

On my other kris I would agree that the okir might be only decorative (and I may have misread the post :o ).

Hi Maurice, IMVHO that's not a talismanic symbols/inlay.
Those're just engraved/inlaid adornments/decorations .

Is it a crocodile or a lizard?
In Malay world lizard is a symbol of cautiousness/alertness.
And that symbol doesn't has any talismanic value at all but a mere reminder to the owner of the item to always be cautious/alert.

Below are samples of diagram with talismanic value:

1. http://kibayu.files.wordpress.com/20...erang-hati.jpg
   
2. http://kibayu.files.wordpress.com/20...pengasihan.jpg
   
3. http://wongalus.files.wordpress.com/.../rajah2-ok.jpg
   
4. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NaHa7XI9wd...-+Copy+(2).jpg
   
5. http://www.pusakadana.com/jimat2.gif

Hope my two cents helps!

mohd

Very helpful Mohd thank you.

IN the Philippine world, stylized animals and "x"s are talismanic symbols. The "lizard" is in fact a stylized crocodile, a power symbol.

Battara thank you for your contribution of sharing those wonderfull krisses.
I could imagine that the crocodile figure is for talismanic, and the defoliate decoration on the other kris more as decoration...Which I'm glad you also shared in this thread.

Unfortunately I don't have the answer of what will be only used as decoration, and what will be used as talismanic purposes.
But somewhere in the back of my head I remember I've read something in an old book (which I can't recall in my mind), that motifs, filled with silver or gold inlay, means to be there to strengthen the owner and protect him against evil or harm.
I'm sure there must be more knowledge about this here of forumites and I hope this thread will be interesting which eventually give us a good sight on what to see as decoration and what to see as talismanic purposes.

It seems that I'm not the only one having these questions, considering the posts of mohd and kino..
And this was exactly what I wanted to cause by this thread.

Please share more images and knowledge about this!
I'm getting real curious now to learn more.....

Maurice

For Moro pieces, Cato's Moro Swords is one source that is specifically tailored for Moro swords and discusses for example the "x" as a talismanic mark (p.92 for starters)...........

Other tribes that are not mentioned in Cato can be found with their talismanic symbols in Philippine textile works, like Textiles of the Southern Philippines .............

Thanks for the clarification Battara and I agree with you.
That is a nice interpretation of a Crocodile on your lovely Kris ( I don't think I have ever seen that kris before). A photo of a Moro Buwaya pangi.


Mohd, I have to respectfully disagree with you on the "X", inlaid on Maurice's kris. I don't think the Mindanao/ Sulu moros played with the same rules as their Malay brethren. Cato had mentioned that some practiced "folk Islam", in which they tailored their religious practice to fit their lifestye. Thanks for posting photos of the talisman.

Maurice that is a really nice kris. Good topic.

Frankly José Cato refers only very briefly to the Xs on the spine of a panabas as "ornamental/talismanic", a catch-all phrase which to me seems just a bit meaningless and unsupported. That being said, i am of the mind that the "X" designs on Maurice's blade that curve inward (a very different "X" pattern than the ones Cato notes on the spine of the panabas. I don't think we can consider all type of "x" patterns to be equal) are most probably talismanic in nature. The stylized croc might also be considered to have a talismanic element (certainly the animal is considered powerful), but it seems to me that all these other markings are merely decorative.

Nice idea Maurice for a good reference thread.
I hope all will contribute so we have as many examples as possible for future references. Maybe we first should allow all forumites to post and then in another thread discuss which motifs that might be talismanic and why?
Here are variations of motifs that I suspect might be talismanic on my kris.

Michael

Sorry Michael, but i don't see the point in having one thread to post the images and another to discuss the motifs.
You have posted some fine examples i think. Again i would suggest that some are strong candidates for talismanic signs while others look to be just decoration to me. Beautiful pieces all though.... :)

David, the only reason was to keep the thread more "clean" - like the mandau face gallery.
Anyway as a response to Mohd so far I have never seen a magic square on a moro kris. I doubt that there is one but I would very much like to be proven wrong on this, maybe in this thread?
The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Michael

Well, i guess that's a magick square of sorts... ;)
I don't think we will be all too successful stopping the commentary on posted images so i suggest we just let it come and sort it out as we go...

I believe that almost anything related to weapons in their traditional cultural setting (especially personal sidearms like kris/keris) is bound to touch on talismanic functions, magick and local belief systems (which doesn't preclude any features from being also decorative elements and/or signifying status, too).

I agree that there may be features which are likely to be more for showing off than talismanic function (like junggayan pommels and other readily seen features). I'd be very cautious to declare any "hidden" features (like inlaid blades) to be merely decorative though, especially since a lot of the knowledge surrounding talismanic functions obviously has been kept secret and/or lost.

Regards,
Kai

Ha, ha,
But seriously I took for granted that all of you were familiar with the concept of a "magic square", which is an academic term, and other square symbolism used in magic, like the Ring of Solomon. A better term would maybe be talismanic diagram, like Mohd suggested, because usually either the number or letter values in the square (or rectangle) gives the same sum in each column and row.

A very good reference work is the article Islamic and Indian Magic Squares by Schuyler Cammann. Part I was published in History of Religions Vol. 8, No. 3 (Feb, 1969) pp. 181 - 209 and Part II in History of Religions Vol. 8, No. 4 (May, 1969) pp. 271 - 299.

Michael

I am really sorry to introduce in this thread a non-Moro stuff, but after seeing the Kai's blade I simply cannot hold back :) The silver "crowns" are almost identical to the decoration on a West Anatolian yataghan I have (with twisted core, by the way...) Do somebody know what these "crowns" mean and how can they be so similar??? It should be some Islamic symbol...

Thank you Michael for sharing these wonderfull krisses!
You've got some diversity of symbols there!

I wonder in what kind the symbols (crowns-liked) in Kai's kris is differing with the almost same symbols as the "stars" that Michael has on some krisses...

Tatyana also great reference to put your image of the yataghan. It indeed has comparisons with the symbols of Kai's piece, but than with a better "finish".

A Sulu kris with symbols from the Bronbeek Museum Arnhem.
 

In this thread I'd like to share images of this kris, which is from the collection Beijens, and is now in hands of the Bronbeek Museum in Arnhem.

Michael, of course i am familiar with the concept of the magick square which is why a wrote "of sorts" and ended my comment with a wink....get it? ;)

David,

Of course I understood that you were joking (= "Ha, ha, But seriously...") but it also made me aware that maybe not all forumites are familiar with this concept.
However I also think there might be a problem when you spell it "magick square". For me you then are not directly referring to this specific concept but doing a personal belief (maybe in a way a semi-religious?) statement were the concept of "magick" (vs. "non-Crowleyan etc." magic) is stressed more than what we are discussing.

Michael

here's another one. green blade and all

That's a fine one Ron!
Very interesting signs! Do you happen been able to clearify any of them?

Ron, your blade is almost a talismanic overdose.
I start with an interpretation of the first symbol, maybe someone else has other explanations or know the meaning of the other ones?
The 2 squares in an angle forming an eight-pointed star follows the principle of the double cross. A cross redistributes evil forces away from you, like a road crossing.

Michael

Maurice: unfortunately, no. What I do find interesting are the markings around the handguard. Just below the separation line are half-moon marks from one end to the other, while closest to the handle are bunch of "x"'s that reminds me of some kind of a barrier. It's as if the djinn inside is too powerful, prompting the panday to add extra protection for the bearer (those little "x"), and additional lock (the little half moons). Just guessing, btw... :shrug:

Hi Michael
you're right if you are speaking about the Seal of Solomon,
but I dunno of any Islamic graphic evocation of the "ring of Solomon" :confused:

I've a collection of more than 50 "Islamic talismanic bowls" Sunnite as well as Shiite
at least I've a good understanding, for what is concerning Muslim symbols, used for magic ;)
here a pics attached for one of my best example, with the Solomon Seal (17th C)

regards

à +

Dom

Is it me or do I not see a star or seal of Solomon on the blade? :confused:

Circular forms near the seperation line.
 

Thanks all for getting this thread more interesting....I really going to like it more and more, though I have no knowledge whatsoever about the meanings of the symbols.

The circular shapes near the seperation line and on the gangya are very common it seems.
I see it on my blade, as well on Michael's blades and Ron's blade (however different) also.
About the meaning of all these I really don't know, but I can look for more comparison material.

I found a very interesting kris in the Tropenmuseum database, also with these circular forms above the seperation line. It seems that on the gangya it has some x'-s as on Ron's blade, but I can't see it very sharp on the image.

What I also see on most inlaid blades, is that the centre suggests to be of floral motifs, liniar lines, or some kind of waves, surrounded with stars, crowns, arrows...
On top of the floral motives you can find some kind of other symbols.
At my kris in the first post it consists of several "x" forms on the centre of the blade.
On the kris of the Tropenmuseum it is some kind of spherical symbol with an arrow pointing to the gangya, and above that two other talismanic representativs.

there is no seal of Solomon, nor any sign of Islamic origin talismanic on this blade :p
you're right, I just brought my little knowledge about the talismanic symbols of Islamic origin,
to show what they were
;)
à +

Dom

sorry ... doubloon

à +
Dom

Ukkil – Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago
 

Hi all, interesting thread..

Here's a book which might be useful, "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago", by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa. Chapters of interest.. Chapter I - Decorative Motifs and Symbols; Chapter VII - Blacksmithing and Casting; Chapter VIII - Goldsmithing and Silversmithing.

For more details, see here: ;)
http://alamshah67.multiply.com/reviews/item/113

Thanks Alam Shah!

Do you have this book and can you find symbols in it which you find back on the images posted?

I've just had a quick look at ebay, and I found only one example for EUR 392,75 :eek:

Very nice collection of medicine, or poison, bowls, Dom!
I have mostly read about them when I studied Islamic Magic at the University but never seen as many as you have at once. Do you collect talismanic shirts, mirrors, locks and containers too? If so I would appreciate if you could mail me some pictures as references.
The reason why I wrote, "what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners)" is that I don't know where Cato got that name. I have not seen it in use outside his book.
The symbol, and its meaning as I described it above, is however well documented. My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?

Michael

You can get one at US143.95 here.. :)
http://www.kabayancentral.com/book/a...mb5504809.html

Hi Michael
which book/s could I recommend to you ... :rolleyes:
I'm a self made man, and my training, it's the one of the street :o
anyway, thanks for the reference that you gave me,
I found this book in sale, and I will get it ;)
PM in your in box,
otherwise we will be too much "out of subject", comparatively to "Ethnographic Weapons " :p

à +

Dom

Thanks Dom for your very interesting mail!
Another good reference book for those interested is the anthology Magic and Divination in Early Islam (2004), Emilie Savage-Smith (ed.).
The pentagram on Ron's kris is described as one of the seven magic signs in this book. It is also representing Solomon in Islamic symbolism, like on the Moroccan flag, but is much more rare for talismans than The Seal of Solomon that Dom referred to above.

Michael

i believe this 'guy' has been in this forum before. was there a translation made earlier? if not, perhaps we can kindly request dom to do it for us? :) thanks in advance!

the one above is now in 'antropologia' museum in madrid. this barung on the other hand is in museo naval, in madrid also ...