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Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers
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Hi all,
I´d like to make a little listing available here as a PDF file. It is about sabers used in the area of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Hungary. It is not about the production origins, solely their existence in a time period based on comprehensive paintings. I noticed there seem to be some misconceptions on forums and auction houses when it comes to dating these swords and talk is cheap so I decided to collect some contemporary depictions of sabers and match them as best as possible with photographs of specimen. Also reading books about this topic I wonder sometimes why some authors date certain swords in a specific way: Turns out sometimes that authors rely on books written a hundred years ago and take what was then nothing more than a working hypothesis as pure fact. This is annoying. Since these paintings are all veryfied when it comes to their production date, it´s an elegant way of "proof" for a dating. Please note that the age of the sabers depicted on the photos do eventually not correspond 1:1 with the depiction on those paintings because those have been used throughout many decades. Some time gaps still remaining because of the lack of contemporary visual sources. Best, Patrick |
Very nice! Thank you for posting this. I would like to add a few a few observations:
1 - the portret of Vlad Țepeș Drăculea III is actually one from around 1700, commissioned by the Esterhazy family. So, it really represents what the people of 1700 thought what Țepeș looked like, not what he actually looked like(see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JUPq5NEEo). As such it can't be used to prove the existance of "boot-hilt hungarian sabres at that time (1460s). Here's another portrait that makes me scratch my head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed...med_IV_(2).jpg. According to this portrait, Mehmed IV (circa 1682) had a Polish-Hungarian boot-hilted sabre. What's the likelihood? 2 - Another sabre that looks like Martin Kober/Kubinyi Dániel's (1595) portrait sabre is this one https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33998 3 - A few relevant pictures can also be found here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=10450&page=3 4 - A few more suggestions for which we know the owner and therefore the date: Nikola Zrinsky/Zrínyi Miklós: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanul...-szablyak.html &&&&& https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...-zrinyi-miklos Ferdinand II, Archduke of Austria??? (1526–1564)??? made in 1514https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/rec...ted-bib5847482 &&&& https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanul...-szablyak.html From the second source: Quote:
Đorđe Branković (1688?): https://oruzjeonline.com/2021/10/04/...djenog-kralja/ Thury György (1519 -1571), not a sabre, but a pallash: https://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/20...ry-kardja.html &&&&&& https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thury_Gy%C3%B6rgy There is also Gjergj Kastrioti/Skanderbeg's pallash, but it's provenance is debatable https://carolynperry.blogspot.com/20...derbeg-in.html It seems that the fashion for sabres in the 1500s/early 1600s was that of long quillons. Just look at Bathory, Zrinsky, Bebek, Ferdinand's sabres. Even Thury's pallash has long quillons. Each quillon is roughly the same length as the handle. So most likely these ones are from the 1500s as well https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/rec...ted-bib5810577 &&& https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/284576 &&& https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/289065 &&& https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...zablya-szikszo &&& https://www.khm.at/de/objektdb/detail/371721/?lv=detail Maybe this one too https://www.khm.at/objektdb/detail/371717/ |
Hey Teisani,
thanks a lot for this lot of information - I will go through it when I got the time. Also thank you for poiting out the correct date of Vlad´s depiction, guess I missed something there. |
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A few period depictions of 16th and early 17th century East European sabres in portraits:
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An interesting site with portraits of mostly Hungarian nobility (many of them with their sabres).
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...szazad/adattar |
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In addition to sabres, I recommend looking at pallashes as well, since they have roughly the same hilts as contemporary sabres.
Here are two hussar pallashes from Lithuania which I rarely see posted: 1 - https://vdkm.limis.lt/en/eksponatai/...ype=EKSPONATAS 2 - https://www.limis.lt/en/paieska/perz...ype=EKSPONATAS |
Another thing to consider when dating sabres can be scabbard fittings. Here's an interesting article on this topic (in Russian, but Google translate works well enough). https://www.kitabhona.org.ua/libwar_armor/oboyma1.html
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Teisani,
I regret not having the time in the moment to dive in a extended discussion about our topic here with you but I follow your posts with great interest. Feel free to take the PDF from above and add information to it, if you want. I think this would be beneficial for all readers. There is so much to talk about and I will come back to it on a regular basis after finishing my final university exam which consumes nearly all of my time until April :eek: I had the urge to write this because you´re putting in that effort and so much in-depth information. Thanks again for that. |
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Once all this compilation is done, the analysis/conversation of said data can begin. I'll post everything I have in the next week (not much, just what I could find online). A few notes: 1 - The title is "Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers"; however, I believe some Byzantine/Ottoman Empire sabres from the 1400s-1600s may be included for analysis as Central and Eastern Europe did not develop in a vacuum. 2 - I have some doubts that the sabre depicted here has a karabela hilt (first page your PDF). When you have time, could you please provide a higher quality picture, or tell me where was it taken? I just have doubts that the karabela hilt originated in the early 1500s. 3 - The picture of the Ferdinand II, Archduke of Austria sabre is really nice :). When you have time, can you please provide it in a higher resolution on this thread? Have a nice day and good luck with your exam! |
A nice book: Huszárfegyverek a 15-17. században by Kovács S. Tibor https://issuu.com/lajosyossarian/doc...sz__rfegyverek
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A few beautiful drawings by Italian artists from the 15th century of Ottoman/Byzantine people (and their sabres). Luckily in high resolution :). This kind of artwork really tickles my fancy :D.
1 - Sketches of the Emperor John VIII Palaeologus, a monk, and a sabre - by Pisanello in 1438: Source: https://www.artic.edu/artworks/11356...rd?q=Pisanello I highly recommend studying the high-resolution version in the link. PS: There is also a depiction of a bow and quiver here (https://www.artic.edu/artworks/11356...iver-of-arrows) and another depiction of John VIII Palaiologos (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._Pisanello.jpg). Although not really relevant to this discussion, still nice. |
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2 - Ottoman janissary by Gentile Bellini 1479 - 1481 (probably at Constantinople).
Source: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...ject/P_Pp-1-19 |
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3 - Ippolito de' Medici in Hungarian costume by Tiziano Vecellio in 1533.
Source: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritrat...o_de%27_Medici & https://gallerix.org/album/Titian/pic/glrx-323132363 I know I posted this one before, but it's worth posting a close-up of that sabre. |
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Some more period depictions:
4 - Battle of Orsha/Bitwa pod Orszą - probably by a painter from the circle of Lukas Cranach the Elder, most likely Hans Krell in 1525 - 1535. Of course I posted this one, I'm only human..couldn't resist! The famous painting depicting the battle of Orsha from 1514. It's a real treasure for anyone interested in that period/region's weapons. Nice summary about it can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwHcl8y2fk Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...Orsz%C4%85.jpg The painting is much too big and detailed to post in low resolution here, so instead here are some close-ups. Muscovites |
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Polish & Lithuanians
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5 - The great triumphal chariot, detail: The Hungarian trophy by Albrecht Dürer, 1518 original.
Detailed design for the woodcut sequence of imperial triumphal procession Maximilian I, printed in its entirety for the first time in 1526, Dürer was responsible for the design of the carriage with the marriage of Emperor Maximilian to Mary of Burgundy and published it in 1522 in eight sheets. Source: http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/D%C...?hl=ungarische Not very detailed, but every source helps. |
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6 - Nikola IV Zrinski (Hungarian: Szigeti Zrínyi Miklós; 1508–1566), Ban of Croatia from 1542 until 1556.
Source: Leónidasz a végvidéken. Zrínyi Miklós (1508-1566) by Varga Szabolcs Note: I've posted this one before, but this one's in higher quality. Source: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanul...-szablyak.html The sabre resides at the Museum of Fine Arts in Vienna (Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien), Austria. According to Prof. dr. Major General József Padányi, the likely year - with the dragon coat of arms of the Zrínyis on the grip caps - is 1563. At that time, Miklós Zrínyi was at the height of his power, and at the coronation of Maximilian II (King of Hungary September 8, 1563 - 12 October 1576), the saber could have been a gift from Zrínyi, who carried the state apple, as a souvenir. A painting was also made of this event, proving the above. The previous posted source dates the painting to 1541-42. So, it's a bit confusing. |
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7 - "Gothic" sabre (1470?-1520?) at the Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum Budapest
This is probably the oldest Hungarian sabre known. It also has the earliest depiction of a hussar, on the scabbard. Most likely originaly Ottoman sabre (from 1470-1500?), later (probably during the 1510s) its scabbard was modified to incorporate the hussar depiction. Another reason to classify this as Hungarian rather than Ottoman is the representation of Adam & Eve on the scabbard. So not much is known about this one. The best source of info on this one, I've found is "SZABLYÁK A KÉSŐ KÖZÉPKORI MAGYARORSZÁGON by KOVÁCS S. Tibor" https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/vi...g=270&layout=s There are a few other ottoman swords with similar hilts around the world (Turkey, Russia, and USA). |
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8 - Szikszó sabre
Discovered in Szikszó, Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén county, Hungary. Currently resides at the Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum, Budapest. Can find no other info on it. https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...zablya-szikszo |
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9 - Bebek György sabre
Bebek György (lived 1529-1567), became a prisoner of the Ottomans in 1562 but was released in 1565 from captivity and given this sabre by sultan Suleiman I the Magnificent. Quote:
Total Length: 94cm Blade width: 3.3cm Weight with scabbard: 2kg Source: https://www.szadvar.hu/2021/07/bebek-gyorgy-szablyaja/ |
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9 - Bebek György sabre (continued)
Personal opinion...Bebek's sabre seems to be a typical (my estimates 1540s to 1590s) boot hilt, with wire wrap, long quillons (about same length as the handle). Yet it was a gift from the Sultan. The question is whether: - the Sultan had craftsmen that could make Hungarian style hilts. - it was a looted by the Ottomans, later gifted to Bebek. - the sabre's original hilt and scabbard was changed later between the 1565 (release date) and 1567 (year of death). My opinion no likely but who knows. Really interesting... Bebek's sabre looks very, very similar to this sabre in Sultan Mehmed IV (1642 – 1693) portrait in 1682. I really wonder if this painting is authentic (no idea if yes or no), or why would the Sultan be wearing a Hungarian sabre, 100 years out of date. Really strange! Anybody else have any idea/opinions about this painting? Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed...med_IV_(2).jpg |
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10 - Knyaz (prince) Fyodor Mikhailovich Mstislavsky (? - 1540)
This one is a Muskovite sabre, reminescent a bit of some sabres depicted in the "Battle of Orsha" painting. On the blade's spine there is the incription "Сабля Князь Федора Михайловича Мстиславскаго/Saber of Prince Fyodor Mikhailovich Mstislavsky". The blade is made by "Abdul-Ali Qasim from Egypt". Looks like a typical Ottoman sabre of the era, except for the flat end-cap. Total length: 102cm --- Blade length: 86.36cm --- Blade width: 5.65cm (8cm at the yelman) --- Thickness: 0.8-1cm --- Quillon: 22cm --- Languettes: 10cm --- Weight with scabbard: 2.6kg https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мстисл...ич https://pikabu.ru/story/istinno_boga...vskogo_4919872 https://mayak-parnasa.livejournal.com/1227109.html |
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11 - Two more Muscovy sabres? They look a bit like some of the sabres in the "Battle of Orsha painting".
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12 - Ottoman/Mamluk sabre (probably from early or mid 16th century??).. It's hilt is reminiscent of some sabres depicted in some portraits, like Jan Zamoyski's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Za...n_Zamoyski.PNG) & Jan Daniłowicz's(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Da..._Ruthenia).PNG). Portraits also posted above.
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Scabbard Length 830 mm Scabbard Weight 0.457 kg Sword Length 960 mm Sword Weight 1.154 kg Source:https://collections.royalarmouries.o...c-object-31132 |
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13 - Tomb effigy of Balassa Menyhért/Melchior Balassa (1511-1568) - in the church of Sološnica, Slovakia.
Inscription on the tomb says: Quote:
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https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balassa_Menyh%C3%A9rt https://malackepohlady.sk/?p=1718 https://ujkor.hu/content/emberveres-...fosztas-forras https://malackepohlady.sk/?p=22263 |
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14 - Tomb effigy of Dobó István (1502 - 1572)
He died in 1572 at his home in Szerednye (a settlement located in present-day Transcarpathia, halfway between Uzhhorod and Munkács), and on 28 June his body was brought to Dobóruszka-HU/Ruská-SK (in the Košice Region of eastern Slovakia). The red-marble Renaissance sarcophagus made by his son Dobó Ferec around 1610. In the sanctuary of the church in Dobóruszka. The side panels of the tomb, which can still be seen here today, are original, but the famous cover is only a copy. The original marble tombstone cover can be seen today in the István Dobó Castle Museum in Eger, in the Heroes' Hall, complete with a copy of the side panels and a so-called "crab wolf" marble helmet that was later added to the tombstone. The following inscription can be read on it: "Here is the grave of István Dobó, who repulsed the thousands of armies of the Turks from the walls of Eger, and by an excellent triumph, he drove away the fate of Hungarian land. His son, Ferenc Dobó, claimed this memory to be truly worthy of national mourning." So, the effigy was made 52 years after his death! The photos are of the original. Difficult to tell if the sabre depicted here has very-long quillons like the Zrinski/Bebek/Bathory sabres. One quillon is noticeably longer than the other (fragmented though). PS: Don't worry, more dead guys to come! Sources: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dob%C3...n_(katonatiszt) https://cbc-artspace.com/locations/d...istvana-doboa/ |
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14 - Tomb effigy of Thurzó György (1567 - 1616)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eml%C3%A9k.jpg Also, a mortuary portret, but it says it's from 1621??: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/F%C3%A...alon,_1621.jpg |
Wonder what kind of sabre he had :eek: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Gregor_Baci.jpg
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15 - Tomb of Apaffy György (died in 1635 but the effigy was made in 1660-61), Church of Gyulafehérvár/Alba Iulia, Transylvania, Romania
Unfortunately the sabre on the effigy is heavily damaged, and the photos I found were not very helpful. So this one is just for info. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiboo...ja%2C_1660.png https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/F%C3%A...apja,_1660.png |
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16 - Two effigies for Illésházy István
The first effigy was erected by Illésházy István himself, his first wife, Anna Erdődy died in 1577. He carved his image as well on the memorial stone because he thought he would rest in the same place where his beloved wife who died at the age of 26. However, nine years after the death of the first woman, István, who was growing in power and wealth, remarried and married the wealthy Countess Katalin Pálffy, the widow of János Krussich. The Katalin survived her husband, who died in 1609, and burried him, not next to the first woman in Bratislava, but in Bazin. Unfortunately, the sabres depicted are not very detailed. Source: https://www.sites.google.com/site/ha...emleke-pozsony |
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18 - Illésházy Ferenc (circa 1660)
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...renc-szlovakia |
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19 - Thököly Sebestyén coat of arms 1572
Note: the sabre looks like it has long quillons. Also, the scabbard has old style fitting (1572 indeed). |
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20 - Illésházy Gáspár (1593 – 1648) in life and death.
Note: Rich guys can have more than one sabre. https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/rec...0/2/score/DESC https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...1sp%C3%A1r.jpg |
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Remark: this sabre looks remarkably like the "Gothic sabre" (see page 1 on thread), a bit too similar. And the brass hilt (not gold) rings alarm bells, blade has a nice shape though, I suspect re-hilt. Any opinions?
https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...s/lot/id/68147 Quote:
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Nikola Zrisnki sabre mimics
There are a few sabres around that look like (Szigetvár) Zrisnki's sabre: A - Pulszky sabre - beware of this one, it's actually a reproduction. Source: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanul...-szablyak.html Quote:
Source:https://www.lotsearch.de/lot/saebel-...-1600-47392553 & https://www.barnebys.de/blog/ein-aut...der-landshuter Quote:
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21 - Hungarian sabre - Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum.
Interestingly, compared to most other sabres with long quillons, this one has a European blade. Can't find any other info on it. |
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22 - Sabre of Nikola VII Zrinski (Hungarian: Zrínyi Miklós; 1620–1664), Ban of Croatia from 1647 until 1664. Bítov collection.
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