Tatar saber for discussion
 

It is not often one has a chance to discuss Tatar wepons. Here is an example of a 17th c. Tatar (or Polish-Tatar as some texts would call it) saber I was recently fortunate to find.
Perhaps Wolviex will be so kind and help to narrow the age range.

Is that sharkskin on the hilt?

Yes. Held up very well too!

This does appear to be an example of a Tatar type sabre of the latter 17th century. While this form originated with the Tatars, it was commonly duplicated in examples made in Lvov by Armenian craftsmen, thus the term commonly misapplied 'ormianka' or the Armenian sabre. King John III Sobieski of Poland favored Eastern fashion thus he is portraited wearing one and a number of them were likely worn by others in his favor, during latter 17th century. In Poland these sabres were termed 'ordynka' (=horde) for thier likely steppes origins, or often 'czeczuga' (=small sturgeon) for the distinctive ray or fishskin grips.

These sabres are beyond incredibly rare! and very little is published on them aside from the data above which is from "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, in Art, Arms & Armour, Vol. I, 1979-80, pp.232-33. Examples are also illustrated in Zygulski (p.242-43) and in "Iranian Swords of 17th c. with Russian Inscriptions in the Collection of State Hermitage Museum" by Yuri Miller (p.138, #150). In the Miller illustrations the hilt form is of this type but mounted with shamshir blade dated 1698. The mounts and hilt on yours seem consistant with the example illustrated in the Ostroski article, and it appears by the photos yours has held up quite well. Is there anything you can divulge on the provenance of this fascinating piece?
Thank you so much for posting it!!!! :)
All the best
Jim

As Jim neatly outlines, this does appears to be a latter 17th century Lvov variant of the tatarska type, given the motifs on the mounts and the method of affixing the suspension rings. Any marks on the blade or mounts?

Sincerely,

Ham

Jim,
I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me.

You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later).
I still cannot beleive my luck.
Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

Ham,
There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars

Perkun,
Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English).
In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard.

The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it?
I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings.

You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues.

All the best,
Jim

A wonderful find.....congratulations!
I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter.
Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back.
Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere.
Mike

Jim,
I found the Tamgas on the net:
www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html

The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families";
I assume the plates are form this particular work.

I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment... :o

I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.

Rivkin,
I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas.
I attach additional pics.
I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle.
I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it.

Perkun, regarding the hilt material, it is actually rayskin (with round noduals) not sharkskin (with triangular noduals).

Nice and complete piece. Thank you for sharing it. Rsword has one, would like to see what he makes of this.

Hi Perkun!

This is really nice example. I wish I had one in my museum, because we have no example of such sabre, amongst many others! :eek:

I think that Jim gave you information you needed, anyway my knowledge won't help you much in here, and I just have nothing to add. So please let me one more time admire your sabre - :eek: :) :D

All the best as ever!

Perkun,
Thank you again for the additional notes on tamgas, and the clearer photos of the markings on the back of the blade. Kirill, thank you for the offer to help with these very obscure, and important markings.

In reviewing material from discussions on the history of tamgas some years back, and pages of material on Caucasian tamgas, the marks on Perkuns sword do not correspond to the illustrated tamgas there, which include quite a few Qipchak examples. The catalog I have was at that point an unpublished manuscript by a well known arms and armour author so I will defer reference unless I can confirm its publication.

The geometric pictograms which are seen in double on the back of the blade somehow do not seem to be tamgas. Unless I am mistaken, doubling or parallel representation seems to occur more on European makers marks or native interpretations of them. However, in Caucasian regions the application in multiples of key markings or symbols does of course occur on blades.
It is known that tamgas were later often incorporated into certain Russian and European heraldic devices with varying degree of accuracy in interpretation. The geometric floral device on the guard and pommel seems to suggest certain heraldic device possibility. Many of the Polish heraldic elements of course seem to derive from possible tamga origins.
Returning to the double 'lazy n' pictogram (well, thats what we'd call it here in Texas!!:), we need more research, but at this point to me it does not seem to represent tamga. Possibly researching tamgas further might reveal such 'double tamgas'.

The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application.

Rick, you rascal!! You have one of these as well ??!!! Any chance we might see it ? It would be great to compare these. I have known of these sabres for a long time from books, but never thought we would have a chance to discuss them from actual examples. Well done guys!!!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

I hope this is considered relevant, but, I recently read this in "Islamic Swords and Sworgsmlths" by Dr Unsal Yucel on Page 57 while describing Umayyad and Abbasaid Swords
'The majority of these swords have somewhere between one to seven gold-filled holes, generally located on either side of the inscription and sometimes at the tip. These golded filled holes were made by riveting a piece of gold into a hole in the blade. They are usually level with the surface of the blade and approximately 5mm in diameter. It is thought that the purpose of these gold rivets was to bring good luck to the swordman'

All the best.
Jeff

This type of mark seems to be common, almost worldwide; it is common on medieval European knives (not so much swords), often in silver, copper, etc. I believe in Europe it was usually soldered in place, with peining being optional. Also seen on medieval European knives were grooves filled with contasting metal wire. I have no established meaning, but it's common; seen in China, SE Asia, India, Europe, and in a thread on a spear we just saw, N Africa (?) Some variability from culture to culture as to size, number, placement, affixing method, and even shape, but a widespread interesting phenomenon.
What is the relation between that "step" in the back and the crosshatched part of the spine? Is it hatched out to that? Then what happens?

Thank you everyone for such wonderful insightful responses.
Jeff, applying KISS method :) (which I really like) is the best policy and in this light your observation and interpretation seems most plausable to me.
As a matter of fact it was exactly in this fashion ("a gold filled hole") that this mark was described to me by my friend who personally examined the saber.
Tom,
Not yet having the chance to examine the sword in person I cannot answer if the cross hatching on the spine is a form of decoration or a sign of mechanical abuse. The "step" (or a double step as it is repeated at the point of the blade forming a "cut out" in the middle of it) is a common feature on Polish sabers and the book by Jacek Gutkowski cited above shows a couple of examples of Tatar sabers with this feature.
As to the spine markings if we rule out tamgas then a possibility of them being an Armenian maker's marks should be examined, perhaps it represents the letter "h".

A georgeous sword that you have posted and quite rare indeed. I cannot add too much to the discussion but do have an example that Jose has kindly referred to and will be glad to post pictures for comparison purposes and hopefully additional education.

In regards to dating, Gutowski in his book "Bron' I Uzbrojenie Tatarow" makes an argument that one can date these sabers by the crossguard size. Later examples seem to show the Caucasian influences and have become very short compared to earlier examples. Generally, examples with the short crossguards can be dated to the late 17th to turn of 18th century. It will be interesting on Perkuns example once he has it in hand to find out if the blade is an imported. Most often, blades were imported and the profile of Perkuns example is that of Shamshir form and may be an imported Persian or Ottoman example and could be watered. My example has an archetypal blade form and really shows how the early Eurasian blade profiles lasted well into the 17th century.

I agree with Jim that neither mark on your sword is a Tamga sign. The "S" shape on the spine is very similar to marks on my sword blade. Mine are found at the top of the blade on both sides just below the spine. My example has 21 of these marks down each side of the blade. If one looks closely, in example 68 in Gutowski's book, that blade has a similar "S" shape marking along the top of the blade near the spine. I believe all the crosshatching on the spine of your blade contained many of these "S" shape marks but it looks as though many have worn away over the years. I do not know what these marks could represent as the example in the book looks to be a Persian imported blade, yours is undetermined as of yet, and my example seems to be of Lvov manufacture.

Gutowski mentions as Jim referenced that only one Tatar sword is known with a Tatar Tamga mark and in that example it is inlaid on the scabbard. My example has the Tamga mark done in silver inlayed on the blade and appears to be the same mark as the example referenced by Jim which is currently in the Polish army musuem. I would be most interested if any of Rivkins resources can identify the family or clan of this particular mark.

A fascinating discussion and I hope to learn more about Tamga marks on my sword and I look forward to Perkun getting his example in hand to learn more about his blade.

Rascalfully yours,

Rick

I am just drooling all over my key board......
Will write something coherent later.

Fugh, I'm not an expert on turkology, so it can all be bs, but:

AFAIK tamga is usually just a signature. Turkish writing evolved from hieroglaphic to alphabet based, and so did the tamgas. There are 3 types of tamgas - consisting of one symbol (Type I). Usually these are the old ones, correspond to pictogramms or hieroglyphs. Very often have a totemic (or animistic) symbolism.Type II - tamgas consisting of two symbols that are symmetric or anti-symmetric to each other. These tamgas usually have to be understood as a combination of individual characters forming a word (with some of the vowels, especially initial vowels omitted). Why turks specifically liked symmetric writings (like swastika - two letters "a") I don't think anyone knows. The third type is tamgas composed of completely different letters, again these are already writing using an alphabet.

Concerning the first sword - these symbols can be tamga, or they can be not, I don't know. However in turkish alphabet this lazy n is usually "t" (however sometimes m or if looked from a different agnle -o and dz can be written quite similarly). Example - attached is an example from Karachai (turkish tribe from northern Caucasus).

Conerning the second sword - that's a classical tamga, probably modified Type II (symmetric with respect to one axis, anti-symmetric with respect to another). The letters involved seem to be "a or ae" and "n".

I'm not an expert in tatar to know which word exactly they coded like this...
Concerning family names - nothing comes up immediately, unfortunately because the letters are very popular ones, there are dozens of tamgas that use at least one of these letters + something else - for example a circassian tamga on the second picture, but did not yet find something exactly like this.

Another lazy n (this time it's "m" ?). From the writings of ancient bulgars.

And one more thing - eastern turks (I guess our tatars ?) write from right to left. Western (bulgars etc.) from left to right.

Kirill,
Thanks very much for this excellent data on tamgas! Since these typically dont occur very often on the swords from these regions, this has not been a hot topic in research for some time (the research my material is from dates from over 8 years ago!!). Its great to have the topic reopened, especially with these fantastic examples. Excellent input!
All the best,
Jim

Hey, thats an interesting note Jeff, I too noticed this thing with the gold rivets. Could there or is there a relation between those 8th century swords, and this saber (in relation with the gold spot)?

Hi Mike,

I actually bought this book because of your recommendation in a past thread. I am enjoying it very much!!! Thank you. We will see as these side discussions are often very illuminating.

All the Best,
Jeff

Hi All,

I didn't want to say anything until I was sure I could find this one in storage. Tatar saber with Persian blade.

Enjoy.
Jeff

Jeff,
What a surprise! Could you tell me more about it, age, region? What is the scabbard covered with?

Hi Perkun,

It has a similar story as yours. Most likely made in Lvov 18th century. The blade is clearly Persian with a very nice wootz pattern. The scabbard is wood with a later leather recover. the mountings are brass.

This is definately one of my favorites!
Jeff

While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars?

Jeff

Ok...now I'm getting interested in Tatar swords (not just the sauce :D ). One more area to collect....*sigh* :(

"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.

Thank you Ariel,

Gutowski's book is indeed excellent. It does give a nice outline on the Tatar history, however I wonder if there is any publications with a little more detail.

Thanks again
Jeff

1. Thank you Jim for your kind words, but my contribution was rather insignificant.

2. When it comes to tatar history, while I'm pretty sure there should be some (probably polish ?) books on lithuanian and polish tatars, the whole topic is very poorly researched. The reasons in my opinion being current poverty of tatars, endless inter-tribal warfare that in the past have led to the destruction of major centers of tatar civilization, preserverance of nomadic lifestyle (extremely complicating the efforts of archeology), relative isolation from other centers of civilization, replacement of yasa by islam (in my opinion have lead to acceptance of arab/mamluk point of view on mongol/tatar history).

A good example - why there are so many hexagrams on tatar coats of arms ? The obvious answer is an islamic one - it's a seal of Solomon. Unfortunately it creates more questions than answers:

While another extremely popular symbol is an eight point star (octagramm) ? It has no specific symbolism in Islam. Why hexagrams very often appear multiple times - 3 hexgrams in Bucharin's symbolics, 4+1 in Usupov's ? Why this symbol sometimes predates what we consider an islamic period in turkish history, if not islam itself ? Sometimes it's been explained as a jewish symbol, but it does not remove the main problem, which is that besides speculations we know very little.

Rivkin, as far as i know,tamgas are primarily to show ownership of a land, building, cattles,sheep, horses anything. was used to understand to whom or which tribe anything belonged in nomadic life's enormous distances and continuously changing settlement locations . tamga - damga means "stamp" in Turkish and first purpose was to sign animals with hot iron i am sure. tamgas should be extremely important to prevent any mistakes, even potential wars. started in middle Ajian steppes and carried to everywhere Turks settled. became an identity symbol for people as well in time, and every tribe, every band, any people had own tamgas. (especially among Tatars, who continued nomadic and semi nomadic life longer than Turkey). Below is the flag of Crimean Tatars with their tamga, used when they were independent, and later autonomyous under Russian rule till 1944,the date they were expelled to other regions). Ottomans were from "Kayi" band of "Oguz" tribe, and they used the Kayi tamga as a military sign widely struck on most arms and armors officialy ordered and manufactured for the state arsenal in Istanbul. I cant find a picture of it at the moment but i think is already well known among Ottoman arms collectioners.
I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

Polish Tatars
 

To be short, I checked out Wikipedia for you, and I'll bring you some basic informations:

Lithuanian and Polish Tatars are generally the same. The latter name was spread after the 1st WW, when Lithuania and Poland became independent, separately countries. Polish Tatars (I will use nowaday term) originate from the Golden Horde and from Crimea. These were political refugees from out there, which settled in Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 14th century. They were accepted by the state and become obliged for military service. Soon they were ennobled, but they have stayed with their religion (Islam), culture and traditions. In 16th and 17th centuries Tatars were mostly polonized (you must remember that Lithuania and Poland were, in general, the one country, connected with Union). Today, after the II WW there are only two Tatar's villages in Poland (they're still have Islam as main religion, as well the traditions) and they're mostly dispersed.
Some of the Tatars were lived also in Volhynia and Podolia (today Ukraine) in 17th-18th centuries.

As I said, only brief history :)
Regards

thanks. short but quite informing. but not enough especially to solve the mystery for me, why Tatar sabers are rare? Odd, when their militaristic state and community considered. They stood independent till 1783. i think it is a date, which should be close enough to let more samples still exist .

Gentlemen,

The swords we refer to as Tatar, Tatarska, Ordynka, etc. are rare because they were superseded by commoner forms within a relatively short period. Polish museums hold the most Tartar items, though Russian and Swedish ones have some interesting examples. Stalin saw to it the Tartars themselves were removed in toto over 50 years ago, you'll only hear Ukranian at Bahcesarayi anymore.
Unfortunately the old Orientalist fantasy of shadowy eastern bazaars bulging with the finest antique arms available to adventurous fellows for a pittance is precisely that-- a dream. Having spent many a year researching in Eastern Europe, Egypt and Turkey, I have seen what was once available in good antique weapons dwindle over time. What remains is often poorly restored or composed of associated parts. Same scenario even up in the Caucasus mountains, though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons. Bulgaria and Romania are devoid of anything save yatagans worn down to table knives, I'm afraid. Western Europe, particularly England and Germany, seems to have the best Eastern arms on the market.

Sincerely,

Ham

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yes, I would like to see what Ham sees like copies.

I have been in Georgia recently and the only place I saw Khevsur swords was the museum. I posted pictures in other topic. No in antique shops not in bazars.

In the other hand I have seen 8 Khevsur swords in greek collections (1 is mine), 5-6 more in Ebay and in dealers hands . If any of these is a copy I am blind :cool:

Where are the copies????

The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago. This is normal because the origin area is remote and it was close to western people for almost 70 years. Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market. So they sell what they find. Most of them are in good contition just because there is a vivid tradition in Khevsur people.