Flintlock Musket Advice Required
 

Hi Guys,
This flintlock is puzzling me. Apart from somebody thinking it would be a good idea to paint the stock orange :confused: the font of the word London on the lock seems to be more modern than the gun would suggest? Although I'm not clued up on that sort of thing. The barrel has proof marks on the top, have not looked underneath yet as lots of pins to extract, looks to be a crown over BP and a crown over BV along with the number 22. The inside of the lock has an S and a V and what looks to be CC as well. It is approx six feet long and fully stocked with the correct length of ramrod. The keepers for the ramrod are also pinned through the stock. It looks overall to be a reasonably well made thing but definitely utilitarian. Any help would be great.
Regards,
Norman.

Looks like a "trade musket", made for the African colonies and similar. Nice piece. Don't know much more about them, but I think they were made even into the late 19th/early 20th centuries ??

I am sure others can tell more...

Youv'e got a riddle there, Norman.
I may be completely off track but, this lock being flint, the barrel has the marks of Birmingham Proof house and inspection Viewed, implemented as 1904 :confused: .
Then the LONDON font would be consistent :o .

Hi Colin and Fernando,
Thanks for your replies.The BP and the BV certainly point to 1904 and onwards. I am surprised that trade firearms may have been flintlocks and not percussion locks at that late date but I guess that not having to have percussion caps would be a plus when you can't just pop into the local gunsmith for supplies. Thanks again,
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. A better close up of marks inside the lock.

Yes, the idea of not depending from things you can't make yourself. They say that Samuel Colt was resistant to change production of his revolvers from cap & ball to complete cartridges because, down in the prairie, one could always get hold of some lead and cast his own bullets, whereas he couldn't cast his cartridges.
Not so much of an analogy, but i felt like telling this (true) story :o :shrug: .

Hi Fernando,
Yeh, I suppose that's why Indian and Arabian muskets of the 19thC were still matchlocks, nothing really to go wrong with them mechanically and if it did it was easy to repair. I have looked at trade muskets and the form hasn't really changed for a long time, even the Hudson's Bay Company trade muskets of the late 17th early 18thC don't look that dissimilar to this one. I suppose if you have something that works why change it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman.

Now that is an interesting gun. And as Fernando mentions, a bit of a riddle.
The overall profile and hardware of this gun look very similar to the English made trade guns exported to North America by the thousands, and sold by companies such as Hudson Bay and others, as you noted. Sometimes referred to as a "hardware store" gun. Plain and rugged for the early North American frontier. Your's looks very similar to ones from the late 18th to the first half of the 19th Century that were so popular during the North American fur trade period. And as you noted, there was little change in these guns for a long period. It seems most were traded to the North American Indians. The Indians would even paint the stocks, usually blue or red. Sometimes even painting a decoration on top of that in a vine pattern. I thought of this when you mentioned the "orange" stock. LOL The locks were usually English made and the barrels (made in various lengths) were often of Belgium make.

Now the Riddle: The 1904 and latter proof date on the barrel paints a different picture than above. While the gun shows definate use, it appears to be in reasonable condition. This could be one of the earlier variations of the trade guns sent to South Africa during the first half of the 20th Century, utilizing surplus parts - as was often the case. If so, it does not surprise me it ended up in your neck of the woods. LOl The orange-ish stock stain is a mystery to me. But all of the original South African trade guns I've seen look different. The stocks look more like European or North American 1860's. This gun looks like a knock off of the early 19th Century. Curious.

Rick

I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.

Hi Rick and Fernando,
The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman - I think the orange paint was put on at time of manufacture to make the muskets more appealing to the natives. I've seen pictures of trade muskets in an African weapons book somewhere, and the stocks were painted red. I had a trade musket myself several years ago almost identical to yours (long since sold), and as I recall the stock is made of beechwood in two parts with the join halfway along the barrel, which can work apart over time... Maybe the paint was also meant to cover up imperfections ?

Regards,
Colin

It is known that many of the early British sea service muskets had the stocks and barrels painted black to help protect against the salt sea air.

Here is one of those trade locks I believe was used with those "Lazarinas". It's a crude copy of the Portugese locks.

Rick

Hi Norman.

Yes, if you can remove the barrel, that might give us additional clues. I'm loosely wondering if the 1904 stamp might possibly be a re-stamp approval of an older surplus barrel ? :shrug: A question: It appears the breech plug tang screw enters from the top. Correct ?
If it is determined the orange paint was not original to the gun, and is a later 20th Century addition, I don't see any reason to not remove it. Nothing to lose.

Rick

Hi Colin and Rick,
Have removed the barrel and there some additional marks but I guess there are just initials, no earlier proved marks. Rick the barrel plug tang screw does enter from the top. Colin the stock is all one piece and you might be right about the orange being done for export but I can't find any evidence to determine yes or no and I must admit it's a pretty awful paint job but who knows.
Thanks to you both for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hiya Rick, I think you just solved a bit of a mystery for me. I have had this gun lock knocking around for years, and assumed it was Balkan in origin.....

Hi,
Evidence of a previous finish possibly! On close inspection there appears to be the possibility of black/brown paint or if not certainly a different finish under the orange :confused: This is the ramrod where the orange paint is worn.
Regards,
Norman.

That being a different issue. Lazarinas were painted with a stuff to resist African weather, not sea air.

Rather crude indeed. It lacks expression.
But say Rick, this is not a(nother) replica, is it ?

With Norman's permit
 

One (three screw) Lazarina lock plate, shown in "As Armas e os Barões" by Eduado Nobre.

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Hi Colin

Hmmmm. These additional stamps under the barrel don't seem to help us. But then, my knowledge of markings is very limited. As long as you have the barrel off, could you post a couple of pics of the muzzle end and the octagon section of the barrel ? I'm assuming the barrel is octagon at the breech, fading to round ? How long is the barrel itself ? I know, I'm just full of questions here. LOL
OK. So the breech plug screw on this gun enters from the top, and probably threads into the trigger plate itself. This is a later feature. On the earlier guns the breech plug screw would enter from the bottom securing the front of the trigger guard and threaded into the breech plug tang.
Hard to believe there was a market for smooth bore fowler barrels at that late of date. But the proof mark is there. Hmmm. Maybe Britian was still making these barrels for hobbyist/sporting use (?) Possibly someone had this gun made utilizing old parts and adding a new barrel (then) for sport shooting ? Just speculating. With that photo of the ramrod, it is obvious the orange paint was added later. Possible for some decorative purpose as you mentioned earlier.
I'm starting to think this gun never left the Continent. If it were not for the late proof mark date (and the orange paint) the entire gun looks just like many of the trade guns exported to North America during the first half of the 19th Century.

Rick

Hi David.

Yes, your lock is identical to mine, and came from the same batch. The story as told by the late Turner Kirkland was these locks were made (in Belgium I think) sometime before 1950 for sale to South Africa. Well, the sale never went through. So in the early to mid 1960's Turner bought the entire lot for little more than scrap metal cost and posted them for sale in his catalog, mainly as a novelty item. I seem to recall the price was around $12.50USD then. I do remember them in the earlier catalogs. Why the maker chose to copy an early Portugese lock design is unknown. Possibly for the simplicity. So any of these locks you see all came from this same lot. Occassionaly, one will show up for sale on Ebay and the like. Notice there are no holes in the lock plate for mounting. And I've never seen a gun with these locks.
So they are not really a replica per say. Just made at a very late date.

Rick

Ohhhh......I wish that gun were in my collection. Notice the lock similarities. LOL

Rick

Hiya Rick, and thanks for solving this minor mystery for me.

Hi Rick,
The barrel is 52 inches long, excluding the tang, and I have attached the photos you requested. The barrel does indeed go from hex to round. I have discovered that the proof marks are from 1904 to 1925, I suspect that in this case it would probably have been prior to 1914 if for no other reason than there was a huge surplus of modern arms after this date and if indeed this is an African trade item I doubt if they would continue to be happy with the antiquated technology of the musket. Thanks again for you help with this piece.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. The photo of the muzzle end is indicative of the found condition of all the metal parts of the musket.

Hi Norman.

Thanks for the additional barrel photos. OK. Octagon fading to round. The most common style. The most common barrel lengths on these "Trade" guns are usually 36" to 42". The longer ones such as your's are more rare. And more desired among collectors.
I'm wondering, even at the turn of the 20th Century, if all gun barrels wheather muzzle loading or modern (for the time), old or new, had to be proof-marked ? Even for civilian use in the Kingdom ? Possibly your barrel is older and re-stamped latter ? But it doesn't look that way. Hmmmm. Don't know.
One other thing I do notice. The wood, at the inletting of the lock mortise looks old. But not old enough to be first half of the 19th Century.
The lock looks to be of good, plain trade gun quality of the original period. As well as the style of iron butt plate and trigger guard. I can't imagine their would be enough of these locks/parts surplus to build some type of production for African trade guns.
So, at this moment, my best guess is that this gun was built sometime after 1914 for civilan sporting use, utilizing an older lock, butt plate, and trigger guard, with a later barrel. :shrug:
In any case, it's sure an interesting piece.

Rick

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the further input. I reckon I'll just label this one a bit of an enigma and enjoy it for what it is. It may be an African trade item as Colin theorised or a bitsa wildfowler I think we will never know. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Portuguese style lock
 

Rick, it may be that this batch that Turner bought in Belgium was assembled and then simply warehoused before they could be fully finished (note the grinder marks), and drilled and tapped for the sideplate screws needed to mount them onto whole guns. If they were made sometime between WW II and the 1950s, the market for such things in the final decades of the African colonies might have simply petered out due to the influx of inexpensive surplus rifles smuggled in from postwar Europe.

Long guns with this type of Portuguese lock were made in Belgium in the 19th cent. and possibly before. There is one of superb quality, maybe made in Liège and probably for export to Portugal or its colonies, dated 1821 that is published in Rainer Daehnhardt / Claude Gaier, Espingardaria Portuguesa, Armurerie Liègeoise (1975), pp 86-87. The specific type of lock is a fairly late one originating towards the end of the 17th cent. in Portugal, a Luso-French mechanical hybrid combining the innards of a French flintlock and the exterior design of the earlier Portuguese fecho de molinhas. The centuries-long presence of Portugal as a colonial master in equatorial and east Africa (Angola, Guinea-Bissau, Moçambique, etc) created a familiarity with and demand for Portuguese armament among the local cultures. (hence the local production of crude copies of 15th-16th cent. Portuguese and Spanish-style broadswords as symbolic regalia in Kongo and other areas down to the last century).

Hi Philip.

I'm sure all of your analysis above is correct. The Portuguese dominence in the Region may very well account for the original prototype for this lock. It makes sense. Good point.
Yes, the lack of mounting holes and the unpolished finish seem to indicate that's where the production ended. And just stored away in a warehouse and forgotten. LOL
Notice also, there is not even a half-cock/safety notch cut into the tumbler. Seems like they were trying to cut every corner making these. LOL
Thanks for the additional Regional knowledge.

Rick

cutting corners
 

Not only is there no half-cock detent in the tumbler, there appears to be no functioning lockplate safety pawl on the outside of the lockplate as is typical on several earlier Portuguese locks -- the molinhas, the horse-neck or pescoço de cavalo, and the half-Portuguese half-French or meio à portuguesa e meio à francesa systems in particular. On the trade-gun flintlock we are discussing there appears an oblong projection from the plate just ahead of the cock -- I haven't examined one of these locks in a long time but as I recall it doesn't swivel so that it can't perform the function of the "Portuguese brake" on the above-mentioned locks, and would therefore be just a stylistic flourish.

When I was in high school I saw a film about tribal life in equatorial Africa (this was in the 1960s, pre-Kalashnikov era), and a local hunter had a Belgian-type halfstock trade gun with a conventional percussion cap lock. Pretty basic gear, the lead balls weren't remotely spherical, and when he loaded the gun and carried it around, he gently lowered the hammer onto the capped nipple and let it be until he was ready to cock and fire. If this was traditional practice in the culture-sphere, maybe that's why a half-cock detent was considered superfluous! (by the way, he missed a coke bottle on a stick at less than 20 paces...)

Be careful if you remove the paint. red lead paints can look a quite bright orange & can be bad for your health. ;)

Hi Philip.
Yes, that piece just ahead of the hammer neck is rigid. Just a stying excercise. Doesn't even act as a hammer stop. I guess the lock designer was not much worried about the locals carrying the gun in full cock mode all the time. LOL Yes, looks like they cut every corner not having the original style exterior dog-style safety.

Rick

Hi,
Barrel definitely made in U.K.
Regards,
Norman.

Before you remove that Nasty Orange paint you might investigate it a bit.

I used to work as the metallurgist for a specialty nickel alloy distributor, retired the Ides of March 2007. One of the neat gadgets we had was an X-ray fluoroscope analyzer. Left no mark on the metal. For some years I used to bring in various brass mounted or framed firearms for analysis.

Used one called "Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S Spectrometer"
This device is also used to analyze pigments in the paint on supposedly old oil paintings. Lets one know if this classic work used pigments - cadmium, for example - that were not available couple hundred years ago.

If you can locate either a friend in metallurgy, or at an art museum, you might get your paint analyzed. Give you some idea of age, though it sure does look old.

A Word of Warning - some lab guys have absolutely no respect for antiquity. Coupled with a bad sense of humor, well. Do make sure your personal body is present during any phase of lab testing. So they don't cut the thing up for a better job. Don't laugh.
Gun makers have been painting their stocks various colors for the last five centuries or so. Matchlock showed a lovely (to my eye) 500-year old Green snapping matchlock.
Here in the USA a successful gun-smith Henry Leman in Lancaster, Pennsylvania painted a number of his rifles red. Supposedly the Indians liked them, and he did supply rifles to our Gov't to fulfill treaty obligations with the Western Indians. Also it would likely be cheaper than his usual painted strips on plain maple. Am aware of one such red Leman rifle bought by a Caucasian in Lancaster County, them moved to our Midwest.

Personally I would leave that orange paint right where it is.

This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish.

I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding:

Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms.
At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength.

No word of orange or reddish stocks at all!
corrado26

We've had several of these walk in over the years; not my area per se
but they are usually associated with Colonial Africa.

I knew Jim Gooding for many years, he was a fine scholar and professor who
was precise in his research and clear in his writing; no ambiguity with him. If he doesn't mention orange-painted stocks vis a vis Hudson Bay guns in his book, it's pretty certain they should not be attributed to that area.

Hi,
Many thanks to all for the continued interest, info and advice.
Regards,
Norman.

Gentlemen, let me add a further 'touch up' to my humble participation in the paint issue, once my previous post #8 was somehow inconclusive...

Here is an Africanized Lazarina. Barrel mouth reinforced with skin, stock comb decorated with leather strips and the inevitable brass nails and washers. The octogonal barrel with Birmingham proof marks and the number 15 (bore?), with the traditional inscription LAZARO LAZARINO LEGITIMO DE BRAGA. The lock and other parts are of national (Portuguese) production.
For those unfamiliar with the portuguese, i will give it a try at translating the part referring to the paint subject:

One of the particularities of interest in this example is that it preserves the original woods (often replaced in Africa with more noble woods) which used to leave Portugal painted red. Remnants of the original colour may be seen under the washers and skin reinforcements that turned open with time

( Courtesy Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES)

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Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the further info.
Kind Regards,
Norman.