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Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?
I want to etch a couple of Keris. I can buy in eBay at Minerals:
- sterling arsenic (a dark grey mineral) - or realgar (arsenic+sulphur, white cristal) What is better for etching? |
Hi Tatyana. I use lab grade arsenic trioxide, but i know that it isn't an easy substance to come by. The nice thing about it though is that it is always the same so you can get more controlled results. I have never used realgar, but i have heard from members here who have that you want the pink stuff. But the white stuff might work just as well. :shrug:
I don't know anything at all about "sterling arsenic" so you might want to stay away from it. :) |
Is starling arsenic :metallic arsenic?
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It seems to be a clean arsenic.
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Tatyana is this mineral heavy or light? Hard or soft?
If it is heavy and hard, pay attention don't put fire near the mineral: his vapour is dangerous (poison: smell like garlic) |
I don't have bought any of these minerals yet, so I can't tell. I just have seen some so called "gediegen arsen", what translates like "sterling arsenic" on German eBay. On pictures it lookes like dark grey mineral, maybe similar to earth. Sometimes it have inclusions of silver in it. It is a local mineral from Ore Mountains in Saxony. Alas, I haven't saved any pictures, and at the moment there is none of it offered...
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Tatyana, if you are using realgar, always use the red or deep oranges with some yellow ones. The less the yellow, the better. the deeper the red and orange, the better. Purple is the best, but it's hard to find. The good one should shows crystalline structure, and easy to pulverize using the pestle and mortar. As Marcokeris already warn, it would quickly transfered to a poisonous arsenic gas if you burn it. Never try the white or gray, or pure yellow. Pulverize and mix it with the lime juice, and let it rest for at least a night before use. During use, the the solution's color may change to a brownish color. The older the solution, the deeper the color. Do not throw away the old solution. It's a 'babon warangan', or 'mother solution'. If you use the brushing technique, you should mix the babon with some new one. Immersion technique use a deep brown, almost black solution. Finding the right solution is part of the art. Keep away the solution from oil, copper alloy and soap. Just put some rusty nail and let it rest for a night to make an old solution from the new one, quickly.
Happy marangi, and beware of it's health hazard. |
"gediegen arsen"
"gediegen arsen" is german for metalic arsenic ,gediegen means pure some metals are found this way for instance gold silver or copper.
Hope this helps ,enjoy F. |
Did you use the "sterling arsenic" to stain your Bali blade?
GANJAWULUNG |
I still have the "sterling arsenic" hidden in the dark corner, but I haven't tried it yet. Really I do not have a good working place to use it safely... The Bali blade was stained on Bali: Mr. Michael Wahle from Bali-Artshop in Germany has brought it on Bali and gave to (-I believe-) Mr. Ketut Karang for staining and sheath making...
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hello Tatyana
when you buy warangan its have to look like the warangan one the picteurs you can buy many warangan but you can not use every warangan to clean your keris some even don`t work regards semar |
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Over more than 30 years I have purchased and used traditional warangan in Solo.
It has never looked like any of the examples I've seen photos of here. The warangan that has been available in Solo over the last couple of years has been very inconsistent in producing satisfactory results. Since the early 1960's, and predating my use of Javanese warangan I have used laboratory grade arsenic tri-oxide. This has invariably produced very satisfactory and very consistent results. Here are examples of these results:- |
this warangan that i show you
comes from a friend of my from surabaya mij friend cleaning the keris for a living and i think whem you cleaning the keris everyday you know wich warangan works the best regards semar |
Semar, I have not purchased warangan in Surabaya.
Please re-read what I wrote so that you will understand clearly what I am saying. I will repeat my message in the most simple terms possible in order that there can be no misunderstanding:- 1)--- the warangan that I have purchased in Solo, and have used, over a 30 year period does not look like the photos of warangan shown in this thread. 2)--- the warangan currently available in Solo is unreliable in producing satisfactory results. 3)--- since at least 1962 I have stained keris with laboratory quality arsenic trioxide; the results I am able to obtain with this are consistent, and in most cases I get a superior result to that which I am accustomed to seeing from professional blade stainers in Indonesia. One thing I did not say in my previous post is that I pay to have approximately 100 blades stained during each 12 month period; I normally have to return half of these blades to the tukang because they are unsatisfactory; of the half I return I normally have to return about 15 or 20 blades a second time; of those blades I usually have five or so blades to stain myself. I use laboratory quality arsenic trioxide on these failed blades, and my staining is always successful. |
oke I understand sorry bud my engels is not verry good and thats te reson
that I somtimes not understand whats say in the mail regards semar |
Yes Semar, it can be difficult to understand clearly if you are struggling with a language other than your own.
I was not casting any aspersions upon your comments, simply recounting my own experience. |
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There are a couple of 'ahli warangan' or keris staining specialists in Jakarta, and of course in Solo, Yogyakarta, Surabaya, Madura, Bali... Quote:
GANJAWULUNG |
The biggest supplier of warangan in Solo is a "Shop With No Name" --- but everybody knows it as "Toko Vera", in Pasar Gede , one street west of the market. This shop wholesales to other shops in Solo and also sells retail.
Unless somebody is buying outside of Solo and bringing the stuff into Solo themselves, they will be getting their supplies from Toko Vera. For a long, long time Toko Vera had drums of warangan that was very good stuff, and back a few years, it was not really all that expensive, however, the old stuff eventually ran out, and the only new stuff they could get was from India. As I have already remarked, this new stuff is not very reliable --- sometimes you can get an acceptable job from it, but other times you cannot --- and it is not cheap. |
I have heard that now days in Jaw also Selenium is used. Because of shortage/price of arsenic. Anny one ever hear about it? If it works must be one of it oxides. Haven't figured it out witch one. Sugestions, please?
And about the arsenic. Like Alan said, Di Arsenic tri Oxide (As2O3) works best, since it is the most agresive...lethal too. 100mg in your body will kill you, when taken oraly, dont know about in to blood stream.. probaly much lower. than you have Realgar, red to orange AsS, easly bought in mineral shops. The mor red the beter, is what people say.. i got a big chump here of maybe 300Gr red to orange colour.. it works. Just when you make the bath ready.. pulverise the realgar realy good, i use a farmacy mortar to grind. A big hammer does the job too :D. and piut the stuff in lime juice. I never put it on a filter.. let the fiber rot.. good for the acid value (PH). En my best tip.. let it stand for atleast a year... other wise it wont work properly... limjuce i white/yellowisch... i should become dark red to black sollution... you will know when you see it when its ready. The pinkisch mineral, i have seen it. But never used it my self.. And dont know if its a mixture of compounds, or a seperate mineral, cant find anny info about it. And finaly orpigment a other arsenic mineral yellow colour! As2S3. Never used it my self.. but hear diffent story's about it. The person that learned me.. never want to have it.. since it's not working...other people say otherwise.. reagrds Michel Ps sterling arsenic is metal arsenic, of non use for us! just looks pretty for mineral collectors. But it wont react. You can make trioxide of it.. but it dangerous.. so i wont tell you more about this |
Very interesting information indeed... I think I have to sell the piece of 'sterling arsenic' since I am not a mineral collector :D
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Well, as i read through this post i notice a bit of conflicting information here. I am not going to get into a this is "wrong" and this is "right" argument because firstly that's subjective (some people really get results in ways that others don't i suppose) and secondly it's just plain counter-productive. But i will give my own advice and reasoning for how i do it and why i don't follow some of this other advice.
Lab grade arsenic tri-oxide does work best and it is the only method that will provide consistent results. This is because a gram of As2O3 is always the same exact strength each and every time, without any added impurities that might exist in all the various forms of realgar. The only disadvantage that i can see is that it is not always easy to obtain, but i managed to get a hold of some after only a few well placed phone calls, so don't give up if you want to try this. And yes, Michel, it would be in it's most potent form and therefore more deadly. My advice would be, don't stick it in you mouth and definitely don't shoot it in your veins and chances are good that you will be just fine. ;) Actually, i would have far more fear about grinding it up in a mortar & pestle, or even worse smashing it with a hammer :eek: with pieces flying everywhere as this is more likely to make particles airborne and therefore breathable. If you are grinding this stuff up i would strongly recommend that you wear a surgical mask. Michel, if you really need to let your solution rest for an entire year before using i see this as another advantage to using As2O3. I usually let mine settle over night and it's good to go. And i am not sure that i can see how letting the pulp rot adds to your acid PH or if that is even necessary if it does. For those who what to use realgar i wish we could come to some agreement as to what color is best, because we are all over the map here. I have heard that purple is best, red is best, pink is best, orange is best and yellow is best. Well, only one can be best. If i were planning on using the mineral form i would be very confused right now. :shrug: :) |
Gents
For my sins I was once an aspiring Geologist. It was a long time ago but one thing about minerals sticks clearly in my mind. They differ in composition and colour a lot. If the relative amounts of arsenic to trace elements is important for the etch to work there is no saying that this will always be the same colour. Often other trace elements will alter the colour, sometimes a lot. The result of this is that a good "etching " realgar may be red in one mine but may be yellow in another. Regards Roy |
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:shrug: |
Maybe it is a stupid question, but I would like to know if (staining or etching) of wootz blades with arsenic may bring a good result? Is there anybody who has tried it?
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This is a recounting of something I have seen, it is most definitely not any sort of recommendation for anybody to practice.
Before I met Pak Parman ( Empu Suparman) I had already been staining blades by use of several different methods, at that time I found the most effective to be the brushing method. Pak Parman introduced me to a different method that produces by far the best results of any method I have tried. I will not give any advice here, nor in writing, on how to use this method because it is has far greater potential for danger than any other method. However --- when I was taught this method by Pak Parman, it started from buying the warangan and grinding it up to a powder. This grinding was done in the mortar and pestle that his wife used in the kitchen to prepare food. Admitted, Pak Parman placed a piece of plastic bag over the grinding surfaces of both mortar and pestle, but this plastic soon broke through, and the reason he used the plastic was not to prevent contamination of the kitchen utensils, but to prevent loss of too much of the warangan --- Javanese mortars and pestles are made from a very grainy volcanic rock that has a pock marked surface which retains some of whatever is ground in it. Pak Parman lived into his mid-seventies, and his passing was due not to the effects of arsenic, but due to the effects of an even more deadly poison:- TOBACCO. Arsenic has two faces. Yes, we know it as a poison, but it has been used as a medicine since ancient times. http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/c...nt/full/5/2/60 This article is worth the read. The length of time that warangan or arsenic needs to be allowed to stand after mixing up the suspension depends upon the method used. For both my preferred method, and for the brushing method, ten or fifteen minutes is usually sufficient, just enough time to allow the floating droplets of powder to sink to the bottom of the fluid. If using the soak method it is necessary to allow the powder to sit for longer in the fluid. |
Alan,
This method your dont wanna get in to is called Nyek? |
Never heard it called that, but given the meaning of nyek, that would fit.
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NYEK AND KOLOH
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If you stain your keris like the way you paint something with warangan -- with for instance, paint brush -- then this method is called "nyek" (the "e" spelled as vocal "e" in "church", and "k" consonant as spelled as ending consonant "g"). This method of "nyek" is very popular among keris traditionalist (old people in the past) in Yogyakarta area, for staining old kerises. The result is not contrast if you compare with "soaking method"... The other method, called as "koloh" method. Soaking the blade in "blandongan" (special place for staining kerises). Koloh method vastly used among keris people in Solo, East Java, Madura, Bali. More complicated than "nyek" method, because you must master each character of the warangan liquid. "Warangan galak" (quick reacting warangan liquid) is not good for blades with "pamor sanak" (?). But is good for blades with "pamor byor" (contrast pamor, with pamor material such as nickel -- bright type of pamor). For blades with "pamor sanak" then it is better if you use "warangan nom" (very soft warangan with very slow reacting of blackening the blade). Some staining specialist in Solo, sometimes push the blade with inner part of fingers (this practice of course, is dangerous...) to push the sanak pamor... If you choose the "nyek" method, then you simply crushed the warangan, mixed it with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime liquid), then brushed the blade with warangan. Of course, you must first "mutih" (brushed the blade with lime liquid and cream soap many time, then brush and brush with lime liquid until "white" as if it is painted with "metalic paint"...) The "koloh" method is not that simple. The first absolute thing to do is "mutih" your blade perfectly, then soak your blade in "blandongan" with warangan fluid... It will waste your time, and you will fail, if you don't do the "mutih" process perfectly GANJAWULUNG |
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I am not a staining expert, though I can stain keris. But have no time to stain kerises by myself due to my limited free time. Usually I clean all of my keris blade, soak them in "blandongan" with coconut's water for couple of days. After one or two days, then I brush each blade with very soft tooth-brush, or other kind of soft brush with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime juice) mixed with (Indonesian) cream-detergent (for instance, "Wing" cream detergent, or B 29) -- in the old days usually we used "buah kelerak" (certain fruit, traditionally used for cleaning batik clothes in Java -- some day I will photo this special fruit)... Just cleaning all the dirt, oil, and also rust from the blades, before the "mutih" the blade process. To do the "mutih" the blade job, usually I mixed squeezed lime juice with cream detergent (this is of course, a contemporary way in Solo, Jogya, Jakarta and else where in Jawa) then brush and brush the blade again. Sometimes, I used the very soft ashes -- mixed with squeezed lime juice/cream detergent. Please, not to strong brushes with ashes... just to remove oil residue of the blade. The finishing process of "mutih" the keris blade is brush and brush the blade with squeezed lime juice only, until become "white". To do the best "koloh" method staining job, you need to do the "mutih" process perfectly. Usually, I do this process by myself, then I give the further process of staining to some staining specialist -- in Jakarta, or in Yogyakarta and Solo. Keris staining specialist in Solo, usually they have their formula of warangan fluid. Mixing warangan fluid, is also not as that simple. It needs month of making "warangan jadi" (ready to use warangan) -- in at least two different characteristic (sorry for explaining in English badly, David). Strong mixture -- in our colloquial slang, we call it "warangan galak" and the soft one as "warangan nom". To make "warangan nom" become "warangan galak", then just put more crushed warangan, and also more lime-juice. The process sometimes take quite a long time... Once again, I apologize, I can not explain to you clearly... GANJAWULUNG |
I also am no expert on the staining of keris, but I have been staining keris since I was about 17 or 18, and I am now 68. That's a pretty long time. I taught myself to stain keris by reading descriptions in books written during colonial times by British people who had visited, or who were resident in Malaya. Before I ever went to Indonesia I knew three different methods, and of these I had found that the most effective did not involve arsenic at all, but used sulphur, salt and rice water.
The first lessons I had on staining keris in Jogja came from an old gentleman who was introduced to me as "Romo Murdo". From him I learnt a very quick and easy way to bring a blade back to an acceptable condition with very little effort. This method is the basis for the brushing method that I recommend to people who want to know how to stain a keris. However, my recommendations incorporate things that I did not learn in Jogja. After this Jogja lesson I then learnt other ways of using warangan and of staining keris; some of these ways were variations of the Romo Murdo method, others were considerably different, such as the soak method.I learnt these varying ways over a very long period and from a number of people in Solo and Malang.Often my lessons came in disjointed sections, and the people I learnt from were totally unaware that they were teaching me. Pak Parman taught me the very best method. It is produces excellent results, is virtually fail proof, but has high potential for danger. In all methods, one thing is absolutely certain:- the end result depends very much on the surface preparation before staining commences. Pak Ganja has explained his approach. Pak Parman taught me only to scrub to whiteness with cleaning ash (abu gosok) and coconut husk; use of water as the lubricant is preferred, and after the blade is white, lime juice without warangan is used to sensitise the blade for the initial warangan application. I have used this cleaning method many times, and it is effective. In Australia I do not use ash, nor coconut husk to get the blade white. I use sink cleaner such as Ajax, and steel wool or scotchbrite pads. I feel that these materials probably give a better result than the ash and coconut husk. Whatever is used is probably not at all important.What is important is that the blade surface must be absolutely spotless, especially in the depressions and grain openings found in old blades, if you do not get rid of dirt and residual rust completely you will finish up with green or yellow discolouration under the apparently black surface. If you want to see how good a staining job is you must take the blade into direct sunlight and look at it at an angle so that you can see into the stain. I examine in this way every blade that I pay to have done, and I usually reject at least 50% of those blades. If you only look at a blade in indirect light you cannot see the imperfections in the staining. If you look at it inside a building, you will never see anything. A really good staining job takes a long time to do, and can require adjustment of contrast even when it is seemingly finished. It is an art, and in my experience very few people can practice this art effectively. However, almost anybody can get a decent result just by following instructions and using common sense. |
Thank you so much Alan. Though i cannot really tell until i make my next attempt, i believe the little tips you have given here will improve my staining skills a good 50%. :)
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You do a pretty fair job as it is , David.
You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40. This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously. |
.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic.
That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese... The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"... GANJAWULUNG |
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Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive.
I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade. Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly. Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good. The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory. This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan. All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years. Both materials give a good result if you understand the process. Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish. As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work. As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact. |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trioxide http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg168.pdf http://health.yahoo.com/leukemia-med...-d04720a1.html GANJAWULUNG |
Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links?
What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan. In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide. None at all. Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic. So is vinegar. So is pineapple juice. So is coconut water. So is dilute hydrochloric acid. So is dilute sulphuric acid. So is citric acid. And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades. Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new. I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too. However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide. In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist. Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice. If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide. |
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GANJAWULUNG |
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