Talismanic symbols?
 

Maybe we could have this thread to gather meanings of different Talismanic inscriptions (inspired by Bill's Metaphysical thread)?
My contribution is this, quite often seen, inlay on a Moro Kris.
I haven't found out the meaning of it yet, have you?

Michael

Hi Michael,
This is an excellent topic for a thread!!!
Unbelievable though that there are no responses from the Keris Kadre' out there to say more on this unusual marking!!:)
C'mon keris guys, I'd like to know more on this, and hopefully some more markings for discussion.

The subject of talismanic markings on ethnographic blades is pretty vast, so I know there should be lots of entries.
Best regards,
Jim

A Moro Kris inscripted on both sides. Many have probably seen the other inscripted side of the blade. Less have seen this side. To my knowledge Cato
has unlocked the meaning of the script. Refer to pages 21 (plate #8), & 102 of Cato's book.

Second photo is nearest the tip of the blade. Sorry for the poor quality photos, as to photographing it is difficult.

It's a pity but there seems to be very little documented on Moro talismanic symbols. BTW, what happened to the forumites stationed on Jolo? Maybe they could try to research what knowledge may have survived locally?

Here are 2 more inlaid kris for reference:

Kalis Seko (Sulu)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=13817&stc=1

Luma (Maguindanao?)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=6131&stc=1
(tip towards the right; more pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243)

Regards,
Kai

Kai,

On your Luma the vegetative vine motif usually represent the creative forces.
The end looks like a rounded version of the old trident symbol.
Probably it's then Shiva's trident from the old beliefs still existing within Folk Islam?
If so one mening of the inlay could be that it's directing strong metaphysical forces towards the direction of the point (=opponent)?
An alternative meaning I have heard is that some people think it's a Naga and the end is a tongue?


Michael

a sundang with some serious agimat engravings on one side. just like this one on macario sakay's bulletproof vest...
http://www.bibingka.com/phg/sakay/anting2.gif

Ron,

Interesting Sundang.
Have you found out anything about the meaning of the symbols, except that it's of protective character?

Michael

Michael,
it's the jesuit order's symbol...

I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India.

The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark.

In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’

Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet.

Sorry, I think I got carried away.

Jens,

Beautiful and interesting hilt!

I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions.
And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin.
So please bore us some more. :D

Michael

Michael, du bad selv om det.

Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text.
“The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him.
’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence.
The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs.

The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN).

The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount.


You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.


Jens

Jens, that's OK ;)

As you probably know other possible reasons for having a peacock on a weapon is that it's the mount of the war-god Skanda (aka Karttikeya, the son of Shiva and Parvati) as well as a Hindu symbol of immortality.

The reason I didn't answer your Indian keris question is that I neither have the book you referred to nor know anything about Indian kerises.
Maybe you can post some examples on the separate Keris forum and hopefully activate Alan Maisey on this interesting issue?

Michael

Hello Jens,

Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like?

It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades...

Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris.

Regards,
Kai

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

Ancient symbols
 

Foud intresting resource about symbolism. Bunch of drawings, they go back to pre-scythian times. They may be usefull for reading old signs from ancient pieces of history.
http://www.aratta-ukraine.com/symbol_ua.php?id=1&page=1

Here are two samples attached. :)

Jens,

What are your beliefs about the three dots?
To me they suggest the trident.

Yustas,

Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning?


Rick,

To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways.

The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know.

The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment.

I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where?

Jens and Rick,

You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too.

I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead).
Maybe combined with the Lingam?
A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni).
In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy.
But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam.

Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest.
Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva.
And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction.

Michael

Michael,

Interesting theory you have, and you could be right. So, in theory, we both believe that the big triangle is religious, but what about the small triangles? I don’t think they are religious marks, but I don’t know what their meaning is. Do you also see them on weapons from Sumatra?

Jens,

I have so far only seen the single dot triangle on Sumatran weapons.
And in all cases on the tip of the scabbard, not on the blades where other kind of talismanic inscriptions are used, usually Muslim.
The several small triangles probably are related to the large one but I have no idea how?

Michael

PS The example below is an early 20th C Aceh small parang with the triangle at the scabbard and Quranic writing in the fuller.

Hi Michael,

Thank you for showing the picture, i have never seen the triangle on a scabard before.

I think it would be nice to reactivate this talismanic thread.
Having now read Indian Ritual and Belief; The Keys of Power by Abbot (recommended to me as "The Bible of Indian Magic"
by a university professor specialised in Indian religions) I suspect that these symbols are intended to avert the evil eye.
The belief of the evil eye (Sanskrit Drshti) is found among both the Hindu and the Muslim Indians.
Among Hindus I suspect that it's related to the concept of Darshan(a), visions of the Divine (as the opposite).
Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye.
BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots?

Michael

Hi Michael,

It is an interesting thread, and I hope others will join in. Stephan Markel, at Los Angeles County Museum of Art, published an article in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004, where he writes ‘ The motif, shown in the centre and neck of the Taipei pot [shown in the article], is a round, broad leafed plant form with generally five, but sometimes three, four, or six petals terminating in a jagged edge. It is clearly different in botanical structure from the poppy flower portrayed frequently in Mughal art’.

The interesting thing is that when it comes to floral decoration, it seems as if the artist had a lot of artistic freedom, but the same, surely would not count for religious or talismanic decorations. The attached shows what I believe to be the Mughal inspired poppies, looking quite different from the poppies he describes on the Taipei pot.

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much :)

Flavio,
To me it looks more like the attached. Some call it a cypress, and others The Tree of Life.

Hi Jens!

What I found difficult is to understand which symbols are only decorations and which are talismanic symbols.... :confused:

Thank you ;)

Hi Flavio,
Confused - that is nothing compared to what I am:(.
The way I see it, there are three different kinds, decoration, symbolic and talismanic, and don't mix the last two, as they may not have anything to do with each other.

I remember this one. Actually it is both. Through use of okir (stylized vegitation motifs) this is a stylized naga - snake - with a tongue. It is to empower the owner and make the piece more deadly.

Thank you Jose :) This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS...

Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this?
If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it?
Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.

I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest.

Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade.
The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them.

All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating!

Best regards,
Jim

Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

Hi Jose,
Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target.:)

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim you have a good point (like the one on my head :D ) and that is that talismans and talismanic marks are architypal (to use a Jungian term) and therefore many cultures across the planet use or have used them in some form or fashion. Often they are used to ward off not just misfortune or empower the ower, but for some (Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines) the image, even symbolic, is enough to scare off (hopefully) evil spirits, etc. Another good example is in Bali the use of demon hilt figures to scare off other demons.

Wagner
 

I just received a 1st copy of Eduard Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons. What a huge volume, I didn't think I'd get it home on the tank of the bike. Whilst I am sitting here looking through it, I came across a chapter on this very subject. I don't think I will be able to manipulate my scanner to fit these pages but for those who have a copy on the shelf pages 67-77 are very interesting.

regards

Gav

Jens,

Having studied the evil eye some more I have found that the "male" triangle is a widespread symbol of an averting eye.
The crescent often represents either an eyebrow or an eyelid.
On you sword with 5 dots this could both represent 2 triangular eyes as well as the number 5 (fingers to blind the evil eye).
Your double crescent motif could be 4 eyes, at the corners, and one, non-visible, eye in the center.

Michael

Jose, that point just means you're sharp! :) You're right on the talismanic images, and there are so many applications. One I distinctly remember many years ago was the rabbits foot. It was really popular to wear one of these, until one pillar of wisdom noted, " if thats for good luck, I guess it didnt work too good for the rabbit!".
Still, one cannot diminish the power of positive thinking, belief and faith. In the many forms applied, these markings represent these profoundly, and often help us not only understand, but to identify the provenances of many weapons.

It seems that the triangular geometric applied device is primarily found in the folk religions of North Africa that are nominally Muslim, though it also occurs in Afghan and Central Asian regions, and is known as the 'fibula'. This is indeed to ward off the 'evil eye'. These triangular devices are found as described in a book titled "The Afghan Amulet" (I think by Sheila Payne) and appear worn on clothing and textiles. In North Africa the best example is the triangular linear motif on the flyssa blade.
I am not aware of the triangle used in this sense in Indian weapons, particularly the Hindu forms. In checking Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" I did not find specific reference to the 'evil eye' ...perhaps I missed it somewhere?

Gav, excellent! You found a copy of Wagner.....extremely important reference, and yes it is huge!! When I loaded my copy into our RV my wife really groaned as I brought it in :) I had to convince her that I had left behind nearly a shelf of other books in its place.
Wagner is one of the few, actually probably the only, arms writer who has approached this very important esoterica in weapons, until Elgood that is!

Interesting observations Michael, the expression 'five in the eye' refers to the upheld hand with fingers splayed shielding from the evil eye, and as noted is termed 'fibula' (seems odd as one thinks of one of the two forearm bones).

Best regards,
Jim

Jim,

Here is a quote from Westermarck 1933, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation, page 50 in the chapter The Evil Eye:

"The triangle, again, is used as an amulet in Mediterranean countries, Arabia and India."

Maybe someone else can find more info about it somewhere else?

Michael

Thank you Michael, it is very interesting, but also complicated.
A friend sent me the following link http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TILAKAM.htm which is huge, and so far I have not read it all, but it gives some interesting explanations. One of the problems is, that some of the symbols may have meant something if you believed in one religion, and something else if you believed in another religion, but many of the symbols on the blades were only used by one religion. But if captured, a good blade was still a good blade, and was used by the capturer.
Jens

SYMBOLS ON A PARANG NABUR
 

This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ?