Knife/dagger identification problem
 

I don`t have any idea where this knife comes from. I thought maybe Balkans, but I didn`t find anything really similar. Can you help?
The knife is about 25cm long.

Is the grip one-piece with a full length stalk tang? Is it horn?

For some reason I'm also thinking Balkan/Turkish possibly Greek....

Nice piece!

I agree looks Turkish.

Grip is made of horn, but I didn`t have it in my hands so far. I`ll write more about it on Tuesday. What`s an English term for the punched embelishments on the blade? It was very common in the whole Carpathian region till WW1/WW2.

Answer to both questions is YES.

I have found very similar ornaments on the blades of Bosnian and Silesian highlanders` traditional knives (respectively).
Silesian highlanders live on the Czech - Polish border, and are the most north-western descendants of Vallachian shepherds from the Balkans (came in 15th century). The similarities are conspicuous.

Such a tang seems more Persian or European than Turkish.

This is a Bosnian or Croatian knife. They are called youth knives are worn by young men who were not married.

the first knife is typical Balkan, comming from the Ottoman influence but found in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia till 1945.

The other is typical for Bosnia and surrounding border area of Croatia and Serbia. Also backdating from the Ottoman times.
Typical are the circular , sometimes straighh lines, looking like a "naive"like semi sun with little stars around.
As you can see in the examples.

Used as multi use knives for fishing, hunting and such. Given to older boys but also a good companion for an adult , and ...useful if needed in a fight in those days.
They also exist with a slight longer blade.

2 more examples of the first one which are from 1930-1945 Croatia

We used to call it wigglework or wiggle work a traditional cheap and fast metal embellishment, but don't bother trying to reference it on google. All references are swamped by other irrelevant stuff now..... Ooh hang on "engraved by wiggle-work on metal" delivers this. https://robbinacekeller.wordpress.co...i-mean-wiggle/

Hi Gunar,

I think the two knives are different from the knife in question, similar yes but different.

I guess that my knife, shown in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black is a match.

Regards,
Detlef

The clasp knife is a classical Ваlkan example: short and wide blade with a pronounced clip point. There are many identical examples shown in Tarik Gozo’s book “ Balkan Arms”. The exaggerated clip point is likely a purely technical feature to fit the wide blade into the curved handle: otherwise the blade would massively protrude and make the overall contour uncomfortable. The only example of a similar blade I know is the so-called Malappuram Katti from Kerala: but that area in India was heavily influenced by Arabs and Turks.

But what is really interesting is the blades of the non-clasp variety. They are identical to the panoply of Central Asian P’chaks , commonly known as “Bukhara” or “Uzbek” knives: among the shown examples we see Tugri ( point at the level of the spine), Kaike ( point raised above the spine) and Kazakhcha ( narrow blade with a short clip point). It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

could well be: in some Turkish literature this is also mentioned and one Turkish history professor specifically mentioned the origin of these type of knives backdating to the early Turcish tribal dagger types of late Middle Ages to 16th/17th century.
I have the text in English but never knew how to interpret this "claim"

you are correct: yours and the link are way earlier (pre WWI I would think) than the 2 which I showed.
Yours originate from the Ottoman times or taken as example from them by good makers. Similar can indeed be found in other regions
The 2 which I showed are not that bad but way less and locally made by some craftsmen in Southern Croatia or Herzegovina, decades later WWII or just a decade prior that when a decline in the craftmanship early started or just a cheap and simpler version was made for a non "noble"...
definitely a quality difference as well indeed

update / follow up:

just bought one of the non-clasp / straight variety ones (together with a clasp one) in Hercegovina where they are sometimes found & offered for sale and it looks very similar to both shown ones at the top and by Detlef's link. It is a typical knife known and used in the past there, confirmed by the local folks.

With the interaction in the Ottoman times it could well be some kind of exchange took or could have taken place between regions perhaps.
Unfortunately a lot is written about big fancy swords and daggers but hardly anything on this smaller knives

Is that a regulation size cat?

There is no such thing as a regulation size cat, they vary dimensionally, but not mentally. They ALL love boxes, and will push things off shelves, counter tops, cliffs, edges in general.

They all will quite happily live with humans, and even love and protect their own human pride members. But they remain cats. Obligate Carnivores. As long as you feed them and respect their personal space, you are relatively safe.

Just remember that if they get hungry, you are ultimately their mobile food store. They always have a plan in the back of their heads on how to kill and eat you. Remember, the cat is ultimately in charge, not you. You are its servant.

which one are you refering to ?
the one in the left picture or the kitten in the right...?:)

also 2 different ones I bought some time ago in the Balkans

just got a 3rd one; a small Bosnian knife or little dagger.
Some call it kama, other cakija others again noz...
Depends whom you are talking to and where.
It is # 3 on the pics.

Nevertheless sharp they are and deadly as well.
Nicely decorated with similar paterns on the blade, small curved lines and dots ( triangle and circular)

First one with a scabbard although nothing fanciful like the bicaks who have wooden scabberds with copper decorated overlay.
Only metal left; could well be that either cloth or leather did cover it at some time , which has gone or deteriorated through the times.

Timewise diffecult to determine; could be anything from 1860ies to 1930ies.
Handle or grip is bone, decorated with colored circular signs ( not as nice as the bichaqs which have inlays) , one without quillion and two with.
One without a rear bolster / pommel and two with

There is not a single Bosnian knife in the photograph shown.They are characteristic of the region of Θεσσαλονίκη/Thessaloniki/Солун located on the territory of present-day Greece.There, the ethnic composition of the population is so diverse that there is no way to define exactly which ethnic area the knives belong to :)

Interesting….you say first it is not Bosnian and later you say you can not define….

Either a woman is pregnant or not, but there does not exist something like a little pregnant…(defining it to yet a region….):)

Nevertheless….I bought 2 out of 3 in Herzegovina…which is part of Bosnia now and in the past since the Kingdom of Tvurtko.

Than again a lot of folks from different etnicities lived in Bosnia and Hercegovina: Vlachs, Montenegrins, Serbian, Croation, Bosnian, Turkish, Albanian, Greek, Roma, Sephardic Jewish….hence many influences did enter, were taken over into different ways of live.
In a multicultural society like the Ottoman Balkans was, one must be careful to make such firm statements….


When you mention characteristics, mention them specifically and in detail, but I can assure you that there are also Austrian books on the Balkans from 1880 which mention characteristics dedicated to (perhaps) others….

Solun was not Greek but Macedonian with a first in the Balkans very heavy Sephardic population, which spread later to other countries an regions like Serbia, Dalmatia, BiH and so on …..

I can only claim where I did buy the knife…

Look...I have no desire to argue. You can believe whatever you want. The very fact that you claim that Thessalonica was Macedonian :D is indicative of your knowledge of history to me.
In my humble opinion, the knives you have shown are not typical Bosnian knives.:)

Neither do I wish to argue but have to say that I am very delighted and pleased by your most charming and very intelligent remark on your judgement of my knowledge :)

Kindly requested to provide me the characteristics of your determination as I am most eager to learn from your wisdom and also the literature where I can find this to add that / enlarge my small collection of books...

Ethnic attributions can be tricky and loaded with potential controversy. Geographically, I have seen a mention of "солунски ножове" (Thessalonica knives) in Bulgarian literature, and seems to refer to small knives with bone hilts with the solar decorative motive, like the second one from top to bottom on your stand.

Yours came from Herzegovina, which may mean that it was made there or it may mean that it simply ended up there at one point after being made elsewhere. I cannot claim anything conclusively, but I believe Osobist may be on to something in this case.

As Theo mentioned, the topic is quite debatable. Also, having a lot of books does not automatically make us experts :)....It takes a lot of time. Allow me the following provocative question...what would you describe this knife as?

Books doesn't make an expert indeed, but can make us scolars and assist to distinguish between ignorance and knowlede. Quite some experts wrote books in the past, unfortunately not much on small / little cold weapons...
( except the fancy decorated ones, specially golden and belonging to the wealthy aga's or aristocrats and rich landowners).

In the Balkans ( Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montengro) the last 10 years quite interesting publications and books have been published !

The hilt or grip looks like Balkan and can be seen on a lot of bichaqs but sadly seems to miss its ferrule like you can see here :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bichaq
or in my collection
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ion#post283727

But as for the blade, narrow and long, I can not say for sure as I have not seen this type that often; mostly at auction houses with fancy or strange description of origin...sometimes even as an African dagger :-)
being doubtful, I never touched them...


The type of scabbard I have seen some similar ones in Montenegrin ones but also Greek cold arms but that is a region I have limited knowledge on.

This specific one; although a nice scabbard, the knife looks incomplete to me (ferrule f.i.) , and hence I would not have it in my collection, no disrespect nor offence intended at all...

I am surprised by the fact that you have a decent amount of Bosnian knives and still claim that the first three are from that region.Yes, in recent years, quite a few books have been published with pictures and information on the subject. The question is how many of them are written by professionals / historians / ethnographers and so on? And of course, they are very informative and useful, but personally I avoid using them as a bible. That is, they are not subject to doubt.
Regarding my knife...don't worry at all, you're not the only one who can't identify it. I have an affinity for mysterious objects :)Just wanted to illustrate that the obvious isn't always obvious:)

Osobist,

Your last item is very interesting. I'm not experienced at all in the subtleties of edged weapons from the Balkans and neighboring areas. However, I do like cross-cultural pieces and this particular item seems to be full of multicultural influences. The very nice sheath looks Greek to me, the hilt from Sarajevo or thereabouts, and the much sharpened blade from somewhere in the Mediterranean region. I don't know whether the sheath has always been with the knife but the hilt and blade seem to have had a long term relationship.

What are your thoughts on your knife?

This part of the Ottoman Empire is extremely diverse in its ethnic composition.Craftsmen of various nationalities work in the main arms manufacturing centers
and acquired experience in the development of various types of items satisfying the current market needs. My humble opinion about this particular knife is that it was made in the Bay of Kotor/Boka kotorska/Bocche di Cattaro.I'm guessing its current form was re-struck after the hilt was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest. I'm guessing its current appearance was changed after the handle was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest by a craftsman working in the Bosnian style.This is how it should look without repair:)

Thanks Osobist for the detailed response.

one can exaggerate in modesty ( "humble opnion") after sharp remarks first, but lets turn to the subject as I disagree and think it to be rather wishful thinking and like the rolling Stones sang: it's only your imagination running away with you. No offence intended at all, but please allow me to explain:

first the type op Montenegrin dagger you have shown:

- dates back to the late 18th century , something between 1780 - 1840
- is around the time the Boka / bay was Italian or Southern Dalmatian Habsburg; so no Ottoman Empire...
- no real wanderings took place of weapen or bladesmiths as they either were not allowed to or lacked the finances nor the need. Specially in the Boka.

Still weapons do wander and yes, marriages take place indeed, but (speaking from experience / being a visitor to the Boka and Montenegro since the 1980ies) no selfrespecting Montenegrin (then and now) in his right mind would allow this piece of "sacrilage" or cultural barbarism to happen to match the very nice scabbard with such a beautiful dagger into the product you have shown as a test to me....☻☻☻

And even if, if the dagger would have ended up in Ottoman territory; i.e. BiH or Sanzak...again these folks were not stupid to do something silly like that: such a piece of beauty would have found its way to some one with the means to have it restored to either its orginal beauty or to a similar high level Ottoman piece but not a simple bichaq type hilt like you correctly stated I have quite a few...
Also looking at the blade: no remnants / signs of a good bolster, which should have been there...

To make it more confussing: in the Ottoman Empire there were a couple of atypical Ottoman ( non curved but straight) blades made as you can see in some examples I took from publications of the Museum of Banja Luka, a paper of a Romanian historical scolar with Dr. title and a Russian publication I was made aware of by a respected forum member . All between 2006 and 2014.

Yes I do agree it is difficult to find an origin but looking at the data, I think a marriage between a scabbard and something someone made but the latter not connected to the Montenegrin one I think...

Than again..I could be wrong...:)

the other pics showing Ottoman pieces

additional: I found at a Croatian website an example of how the remnants of a bolster should look like....but yes...hold your horses...☺☺☺
they could have been "cleaned" away....

And where have I mentioned that Boka was in the Ottoman Empire :rolleyes::):D
It seems to me that we got lost in the translation:)With that, my participation in the topic is over :)
As my beloved neighbor says...Razgovor je počeo da se okreće ka merenju kuraca :)

My mistake if I made the Ottoman connection of this type of knives not clear ...my apologies for this mishap. Although Kotor just very briefly was Ottoman but nothing worthwhile to mention compared to the other Balkan regions...but "workshop somewhere in the northwest" would imply Southern Dalmatia ( Ulcinj or so) next to Hercegevina which was under Ottoman banner...

You also have to excuse me as I have no knowledge on Macedonian sayings.... but lets leave it with Immanuel Kant who said "Drei Dinge helfen, die Mühseligkeiten des Lebens zu tragen: Die Hoffnung, der Schlaf und das Lachen " :)

Nevertheless I liked the above example dagger you showed as an answer to Ian very much! It produced some nice daggers and input. Would have like to know where it can be seen, if not owned by a collector.

some more bichaqs to compare:

2 pictures from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art
1 of a Montengrin gent from 1912 displayung his armor

one film on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpBGyoMCkcY

an older contribution to the forum:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12722

and some pics of a Montenegrin bichaq

the more one sees and also checks the Balkan literature, it clearly looks like the piece from our well respected Bulgarian forum member, sadly the scabbard does not belong to the bichaq and the combination of 2 different items was sold as one set.
This is not oncommon as of my 38 bichaqs and several kamas, this also took place with a few and with items on sale still does if one carefully examines these pieces. Never that type of hilt is matched with that scabbard. That hilt grip is always found on the wooden with cupper covered scabbard