Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments
 

Firstly I need to express my huge gratitude to my friend Jim McDougall who not only works very hard to make these forums a welcoming and informative place but also uses his valuable 'free time' to spend literally hours researching this sword for me.

Jim! You are a:

Right! So now to business.
Here is my latest sword.
Some stats, blade 32", overall 38". Point of balance 3-1/2" down the blade. Balance is beautiful.
I'm just going to post pictures and let Jim (if he wouldn't mind) tell you about what he has found for me.

Hi Gene,

You took the words right out of my mouth: our friend Jim not only is the Good and Guiding Spirit of our forum but also and doubtlessly our most widely read professor and perhaps the only one to be eager enough to try to do his best and work his way into the strangest topics to be discussed here!
Thank you so much, Jim!!! You are not just our star but one of the very few true warriors around!!! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

So we can't have a guess before that !

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Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin
:o :shrug:

An warrior yes ... but not an old warrior :cool: :eek: :D

Exactly, 'Nando,

The blade is of early 19th c. date.

m

Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

Nicely peened tang

Sorry mate, what does that mean?

Comparison with other rapiers and swords showing the similarity in length to 19thC sabres

That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword :cool: .

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Other things have such particularity :o :eek:

Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02

Well done, Gene,

A homogeneous 19th c. collection. ;)

Best,
Michael

Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade :)
undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT! :)

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue ;)

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face ;)

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?

Good catch Nando. Well spotted :D

Hi Michael,

I do find these late anomalies to be very interesting. I've had and seen some very fancy 19thC constructions before, but this one although plainer than many, has the edge in balance and functionality.
I'm very pleased with it :)
Thanks again
Gene

Hi Jim,

I'm sure that you can see, when such respected stalwarts of our community as Michael and Nando add their voices to the accolade, it's certainly one that IS well deserved.

We've been discussing this rapier at length of course, and as you know, I was hugely relieved when you were able to confirm that at least some of my 'hopes' for it were not entirely based on wishful thinking.
Basically that this is a genuine blade in an atypical but antique hilt of seemingly mixed style whose origin remains in question.

I am actually rather pleased to hear that the blade is possibly contemporary with the hilt.
I say this because the blade 'feels' like it belongs in this configuration. I also believe that this might have been made this way for a purpose other than decoration or 'fantasy'.

I'm rather pleased with it and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. So now that there is a record of it here, perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!

Thanks for all your kind help Jim.
Best
Gene

I mean other things ;) ; oh ... forget it :o

HERE is the Klingenthal website, already open on the "poinçons" page, with an option for either military or civilian markings.
A pity (for some) that, although this site has a three languages option, the marks section is only in french.

If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach :eek: .

Exactly what I'm hoping is the case Nando.
Also, if it's French and not English, I'd say there is more likelyhood of it being made for a specific purpose or commission.
Fingers crossed! ;)

Gene, one of the first swords I bought was a rapier that possibly came from a similar if not the same 1800s-early 1900s workshop. Let me know if you want to see photos of it.

Hi Dmitry,
Yes please.

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Very nice Dmitry!
Not as 'beautiful' as mine of course, but not too shabby ;)
What's the balance like? Interesting similarities to mine. Is the tang 'peened' or does the pommel screw-on? I find that this reinforces my view that these might be more than decorative!
Do you still have it? Where is the point of balance, can we have some stats please?

Thanks for sharing
Gene

It's long gone. I sold it [as a replica that it is] on eBay to a Spanish dealer, then somehow it ended up back in the US, and is probably still floating around.

Where's everyone else?
There must be others of these?
I bet many of us have got a 'revival' rapier in our collections of one sort or another, even if not a Klingenthal?

Oh what a shame!
Thanks for sharing anyway.

Interestingly, searching the web I'm finding several references to either Dmitry's exact sword or others just like it>

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...circa-75843724

Looks like Valjhun has one too
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7570

Yep, that's her. She's been a busy girl.

Yup! She has been a busy girl, and most certainly as each successive owner discovers she is ' not quite what she seems' (memories of ex wives :) she is passed off to the next owner, and so on. Much like Gene's fine example, a truly classical form, or actually composite of them, but done in stately manner, actually not originally intended to deceive but to carry forward traditions of long ago. Most intriguing, actually exciting, of all is that the blade, which bears the poincon of Augusti Mathuri, which as I perceive from the excellent source Fernando suggested, is the name of the inspector c.1830-32 at Klingenthal. The script on Gene's rapier at the forte seems to read Solingen, a curious application if this was made at Klingenthal...the one in similar configuration on Dmitry's rapier appears illegible script...as noted the same poincon.
The obvious and compelling suggestion is indeed, probably the same blade source, and with the equitable styling of the hilts, probably same shop.
Clearly the earliest date 1830 based on the poincon, with the range of probable fabrication probably well into the 'Victorian' period and the 'romantic' movement which was noted as Historimus period in Germany contemporarily.
The fascination in anachronistic items of arms and armour in Europe and Victorian England seems to have been quite literally spurred by literature such as "Ivanhoe" by Sir Walter Scott, and study's and smoking parlors were carefully appointed with items of arms and especially armour of the Middle Ages. It seems that as this propensity continued, there appeared a demand for replica items as availability of actual items diminished and of course and accordingly costs rose.
There was a compelling drive to allude to the noble heritage of times long gone, and as Ernst Schmitt of Munich, one of the best known makers of classical replicas, is described from his work beginning in the 1870s, he did not intend to deceive but to as faithfully copy originals as possible. In many cases if not most, in comparison the two are often indiscernable unless displayed side by side.

The references to Victorian replicas and more disparaging the term 'wall hangers' or at worst, 'fakes' have been applied to many of these, however many of these, or in my opinion all, are venerable antiques in thier own right.

While establishing that the replicas of the Victorian period are of course well known and authentic in appearance, the course I feel important to follow here is to discover more on the likelihood of Gene's rapier actually being a serviceable weapon, and for that matter Dmitry's, now that it has been shown as a comparable and similar piece. Yes, yes I know.....Victor Hugo would be proud with such run on sentences...but we are talking about classics, yes?!!!:)

In reading on descriptions of replicas of Schmitt's, many of which have been displayed in the most reputable institutions, such as John Woodman Higgins museum in Worcester, Mass. and even the Royal Armouries. Actually the late Ewart Oakeshott even afforded a designation in his esteemed typology, XXI, considered 'modern' reproduction (meaning not of period it represents).
It is worthy of note that in handling one of these replica swords, they are often point heavy in some, and center of percussion and POB are not necessarily attainable.

Gene has described his rapier as well balanced, and quite comfortable in the hand, I think assessments not lightly placed by someone knowledeable in the art of fence. Its construction, while not necessarily in accord with actual pieces of the period (s) represented in the composite grouping of elements, is
well executed for its purpose, not only in possible wear or perhaps ceremonial use. I continue to submit that weapons of classical form known to have been produced well into later times were likely to have been used by civic or fraternal military groups in Europe, and likely fabricated in Klingenthal as well as Solingen. Many Solingen smiths indeed did emigrate to other countries, and it is well known that Alsace (location of Klingenthal) is culturally as much German as it is French.

In the Netherlands, or in the period we are discussing, the Dutch Republic(if I term correctly) from the Napoleonic period onwards had been deeply influenced by France, actually even annexed at one point. The developing of Dutch nationalism, much as throughout Europe, was becoming well established and much as elsewhere, the reflection of important traditions and heritage were keenly evident.

I for one, cannot resist the idea in viewing this interesting rapier, that it may reflect earlier heritage in the classic form elements, such as the very businesslike pierced disc shellguard recalling not only the cavalry swords of 17th century Europe in the general walloon form, but the bilobate rings of French duelling epee's in the 19th century. The classic form of the grip seen in blackened steel form hilts of 18th century court and smallswords (Aylward, 1945) and the closed C knuckleguard terminal (Norman, 1980) and even the rugged assemblage resembling the Industrial period of latter 18th c. England (Boulton's cut steel smallswords)....seem to imply a weapon intended for contemporary use, despite anachronistic form, and in the manner of the 19th century revivalism which may have preceded the larger Historismus movement.

Again, my thoughts of the day :) and I would like very much to hear other views on this in hopes this discussion will continue. Yes, indeed, these 'girls' (the sword is considered the 'queen of weapons') have been busy, and I think they are trying to tell us more.

All best regards,
Jim

Solingen or Klingenthal. The core is the same; take your choice :cool:
... Mine is Klingethal, for obvious reasons :shrug:

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Just so Nando! :)
I've just sat with PSP and I can make them both fit by interpreting the small scratches in the 'blank' areas. Klingenthal seems to fit the available space better, but Solingen certainly also would fit.

If I make it Klingenthal I have to ignore the scratch that would be the top of the 'S'.
Here the usable marks are highlighted in red, the ones I've addes are blue and the scratch that could correspond to the top of the S is not coloured.

If I make it Solingen it's a little easier because there are several curling scratches where the 'S' should be. Here's one interpretation of the scratches that I can see.
Red are existing marks and blue added by me.

Just so says i, Gene ;) .
Look at the space left on the right side, if the inscription were Solingen.
Definitely Klingenthal, don't you agree?, matching with inspection mark and everything ... just like Valjhun's example.


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