Ivory or bone ?
 

Any opinions on this knife handle as to the material. The silver mounts are Sheffield hallmarked for 1886 .

Ivory

Thank you Colin .... may I ask how one tells ?

Colin refer to the Schreger lines. But I've seen a similar dagger with an early sort of plastic which imitates this Schreger lines. Can you use the hot needle test at an unvisible place?

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks Detlef , tried that and no its not plastic ... I didnt think they would use silver hallmarked mounts on a plastic grip , but you never know of course .

Ivorine, as used on kitchenknifes, can look very much like this.
Sometimes including the lines.
However, I think that ivorine would not crack like this handle

Best regards,
Willem

I looked at two replacement substances for Ivory... Ivorine which was invented in 1899 thus too late for this..and Bakelite also a later invention... I have to say I think Ivory in this case... I cannot see the full stamps thus unable to say who the maker may be ...

Salaams Ibrahiim , the maker is Henry Wigful of Sheffield

I don't think this is ivory. Some translucence along the edges of cracks, dings, and scratches causes ivory to typically show hotter coloration there (red and orange, not black as is shown here). I think the grain is also too strait (with no intersection) and uninterrupted. Have you done the rub test?

ivory indee

This was what I've meant, I think that the chance is great that we are looking at this material by this dagger. But I could be wrong.
Sure you only can get when you would remove the upper silver cap.

Regards,
Detlef

What is the rub test ?

What is ivory indee please ?

The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.

All very interesting but wouldnt celluloid melt when a hot needle is applied ?

I don't think ivorine would crack like that, but ivory will. At least I've never seen cracks on table knives with such ivorine handles...

I have to agree with Colin on this. These has been my observations as well.

A cursory Google search for “cracked celluloid” seems to indicate that it is a problem, at least among fountain pen collectors. However, thinreadline is certainly correct that a hot pin should have shown a positive reaction - in the case of celluloid, that could well be in the form of bursting into flames.
All of which reinforces the difficulty of identifying ivory from a photo on a computer monitor. Sadly, my own collection has several pieces where my optimism proved to be mere wishful thinking when the item was in hand. :o

Ivory.

I have seen a lot of both, and ivory is the only material that would crack like this.

This is all very interesting and informative , thank you all so much .

Think it was meant "indeed". ;)

that is correct

Ha ha , OK I understand now ... I thought it was some French technical term for an ivory like substance made in India !

Hi. Ivory vs bone is easy. Bone has tiny holes that you can see under magnification.

The "Hot wire" test is good for distinguishing between plastics and ivory though not all plastics will react clearly.

Barring fakery, I would bet on ivory. Also, Ivory cracks as an almost natural occurrence, plastic does not except under stress.

I vaguely recall that one can rub suspect ivory until it is warmed, then smell it; a camphor odor would indicate that it was a man-made imitation. I don't have a reference for this, my failing memory will have to serve.

I think ivory's supposed to be cooler to the touch than plastic or bone, too. If you put the piece in a cold basement or cellar for awhile and then pick it up, it should feel cold like a piece of stone because of the higher mineral content.

Yes, someone taught me that, once.

It appears to be French Ivory like your knife scales... thus I agree with you. As already pointed out this is the 1879 factory in Sheffield producing silver and sterling silver and silver plate, Ivory, Mother of Pearl and stag horn handled cutlery etc....see http://www.picturesheffield.com/fron...=2&action=zoom for a picture of the man himself...for research purposes.

I occasionally discover that sword makers were either cutlers before or after their sword making days were over...such as the great sword makers at Shotley Bridge who became cutlers.

A hot pin in bone smells like burning hair. A hot pin in ivory smells like burning cotton.

Celluloid and other early plastics go back to the third quarter of the 19th century. Ivorine...hmmm.,,,composites of ground scrap ivory and glue go back as far as well.

The Russian mastadon mined ivory of the earlier periods can fool you in some instances and has a somewhat different look than modern elephant. Especially if the mastadon stock was from the outer layers (imo).

Cheers

GC

Hello Hotspur,

I tried the hot needle on ivory, bone and some sort of fake ivory and NONE of them was affected in any way. So I can say this is definitely a more anecdotal than a working and reliable test.

Second, when polishing bone and ivory, I noticed they smell very similarly, like the dentist drilling a tooth, so the smell test can also be very misleading.

So I believe the most reliable way to identify ivory is by examining its structure under a magnifying glass.

In this case, I find the lines to be too strongly visible so I suspect it is not genuine ivory. But it is very hard to say from only a photo. Maybe Thinreadline can provide more close-up photos?!
:shrug:

Also please note that all British silversmiths used to mark their products with a mark indicating the year of manufacture.

Check it out to see what year was yours made.

http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_sheffield.html

Yes I do say it 1s 1886 hallmarked

I was thinking about some different materials, you are quite correct. Call it a brain cramp.

I did recently scrape some material and torched the bits and it did smell like a visit to the dentist. That was on a painted ray handle.

Cheers

GC

Ivory Identification
 

Being a new member to this wonderful forum , I am not sure of all the information that has been written about Ivory. I have also forgotten all the technical terms , for being old and well worn .But in looking at elephant Ivory , I have always on all samples , I have seen ,not only these lines but also a crosshatch pattern , however faint . Bone nor walrus tusk ect does not have this . And bone , Ivory and most early composits will crack , due to dehydration ect or pressure of course.
I my library I had before my dear Ex sold off for pennies , I had the original manuscript , circa 1900 of the famous frozen Mammoth, that it was said at the time the expedition members cooked and ate some , UNTRUE. But one fact that struck me was that huge amounts of fossil Ivory was mined in Siberia , still at the time , 100s of tonnes per year. Most Ivory used in Europe before this time ( being pre 1900) and I cannot remember what centuries they talked about in all , was fossil Ivory , I mean in the 1600s ect AFRICA was wild and dangerous , and fossil Ivory seemingly in the Siberian tundra was plentiful . I have handled a lot of fossil Ivory and some comments on red , brownish, black coloration is indicative of mineralization seen in fossil Ivory , not such as African or Asian Ivory. Ivory is really tough stuff as seen by the use of fossil Ivory about 10,000 years or older and does not readily mineralize , as it takes decades to get a patina, usually only a tea color , like that of new items faked as old and colored with tea .
I hope this is informative if not only a few words

Uhuh

Really?
 

It is put in a somewhat unconcise manner , but no frozen Mastodon flesh or Woolly Mammoths had been eatable since the first Winter in which it froze or there about , but in the field of Vertebrate Paleontology it has been know and published since about 1900 that the best preserved specimens the flesh was "jello" like , even the dogs would not eat it . All these tales where untrue , and only belongs in Fables and Children's Books, much like Snakes guarding the pepper plants in India . I mean try putting a beef roast in the freezer for a year , take out and defrost almost all the way and freeze for another year ect.. for 8,000 to 10,000 years . Also the Ivory of the Mammoth was harvested and used , their tusks where Curved but large in size and where used too , not just Mastodon, I think there was much more Mammoth than Mastodon, you hear every now and again about a new find in Siberia , and its always a Mammoth . Still in the early 1900s at least 100s of tonnes came out of Siberia every year . Seems to be a writers habit of publishing second hand information and perpetuation of Folk Tales .Ive handled some of these tusks my self , incredible condition, and I have worked with Fossil Ivory and its as good as Recent stock , but tends to be a light tan usually .

Well, the crux of the published article above was the sourcing of old ivory from Siberia. Exclude all the folk tales and what is left? Most I think equate mastadon with mammoth and I think you are spot on about authors repeating other published work. Still, we have an old ivory trade in the 18th and 19th century. I posted the page mostly for the influence of trade due to the treaty.

Cheers

GC