Siraui and their use
 

Hi All

Here are two siraui for comment. My main question is how were they used in combat? They seem to be more a thrusting type weapon similar to the Moro gunong. Any thoughts on this?

Lew

Hello Lew,

The smaller one is sweet! The larger blade looks like it could have been refitted on Java? (I recently saw one offered from Java which had similar non-original fittings in Javanese style.)

Perhaps try to etch the blades?


Sorrily, I haven't come across any knowledge from inside the culture. I think the closest match judging from the blade/hilt configuration is the Rencong (especially with hulu puntung). Barring any other relevations, I'd extrapolate from there...

Regards,
Kai

Perhaps it is unheard of, digging up an old old thread such as this...
But I'm also pretty curious about the method of use, and I don't think it's been answered.

But maybe the answer is looking at the ergonomics of the handle. There's 6 major ways to grip a knife if you think about it. They go something like this:

• Forward grip, edge down
• Forward grip, edge up
• Reverse grip, edge out
• Reverse grip, edge in
• Pinch/palm/ricasso grip
• Pistol grip for punch knives

From the look of it, it would seem to be awkward fighting with a Siraui in forward grip, edge up or down.

Maybe it was used in reverse grip, or ice-pick grip. Either edge-out and relying on slicing to get the job done..... Or perhaps a ricasso grip for stabs and horizontal slashes?

:shrug: Perhaps someone who owns a Siraui can take it in hand and play with different grips to come to a more conclusive conclusion. Or perhaps speak to Gurus of Minangkabu silat...

hmmm....perhaps they are simply utility knives. From their shape and form and usual size (large ones can be found, but they are generally smaller blades) i don't get the impression that these are made to be fighting knives at all. Of course, any sharp edge in a jam i suppose, but i wouldn't search too long or hard for some kind of martial art form attached to these blades... :shrug:

I too tend to think they are utility knives or were originally. To me they have a feel of a very quick and easy rice cutter with good ergonomics, however like all utility items, I am sure they have at one time or another been used for other needs and likely saw some martial development at some time :shrug:

From the one with me, there is only one grip that feels comfortable or natural and that is the pommel in the palm of my hand and my thumb and forefinger gripping the forte. It is a strong grip that offers the point at mid knuckle level and seems very capable of deep puncture. A back hand would rip the skin deep as the point is very robust but it is a rip as there is no edge on the inisde as is known. Should you end up behind someone, drawn across the throat is game over, the power of the grip and curve of the blade would show no remorse.

Zonneveld refer to Fischer 1918, does Fischers work/s nominate any further details?

Gavin, if you give me the exact reference I can maybe look it up. I am traveling so I don't have van Z with me but I do have a copy of Fischer on my computer.
The Siraui is a utility knife and with small adaptions (like the way the knife is shifted in for instance Silat Bondawasa, for those of you who have trained with Uncle Bill) all the 6 listed grips are possible. I suspect that they were intended to be used, utility-wise, in a forward grip with edge down.

Michael

Michael, no exact reference is given other than the date :shrug:

I am not familiar with the art of or grips of the Siraui, perhaps someone can show this style of knife in these grips :shrug:

Gavin

It seems to me that the grip would be somewhat determined by what task you were applying the utility knife to.... :shrug: :)

The only way to really use this style knife is pistol type forward grip edge up. Any other grip would seem too awkward to me.

Unless for utilitarian use, Lew .
I think this is a non-combat oriented form . :shrug:
Reminds me of the 'Moro/Bagobo Women's Knife' configuration .

Agree with you that this are mainly utility knifes and when used in combat the only way which make sense is the one Lew described.
I have had the same thoughts in this thread, post #8: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

I just had the siraui in my hand and tried all the grips and the only that makes sense is the pistol forward grip.

Can anyone show any references, either written or photographic that these knives have ever been used as a combat blade? :shrug:

This weapon form 'Siraui' is found nowhere in my copy of Draeger's 'Fighting Arts' FWIW . :shrug:

I don't have any of the two variations of Siraui around so I can't try out the grip again. For fighting however, especially adapted for Sumatran conditions with light clothing, you don't need to have a five or four finger grip. That's the reason you can use several different grips for cutting and thrusting if you do it with a Silat flavor. For FMA however the gripping is more like the western way (except maybe when you are guiding after contact with your index finger and thumb when doing simultaneously sword and knife?).

In Fischer 1918 I didn't find the term siraui. For the variation I (attached) there was no name. For the variation II it was described as a "pisaw" (= knife in general). Fischer doesn't say anything about it's main use.

I also suspect that both mine, and the two pictured in Fischer (see below), are larger (handle + blade) than the ones Lew originally showed (22 - 27 cm or 8 1/2 - 10 1/2" )?
What is the size of yours, Lew?

Michael

I have noticed that when we talk about Siraui we seem to be talking about what appear to me to be two completely different forms of knife. The first one you show here, Michael, is similar to Lew's examples and to my eyes looks more like a utility knife than a fighter. The second blade you show with the fuller has a different blade form and sheath form and does have the look of a fighting knife. This is the same blade that Zonneveld identifies as a Siraui. Unless the word Siraui can also be translated as "knife" like pisaw it seems to me that someone has gotten something wrong somewhere. :shrug:

David that's an interesting observation. The curved form of variation II is found on several agricultural knives too from this region.
Could you please enclose a snapshot of the text and pictures from van Z so all the source material is in this thread? I thought both versions were described in his book but I don't have it around?

Michael

Not the best quality photo but all is to seen what we need.

And here the two examples Charles showed us in a other thread.

And here a picture from my maybe wrong attributed Siraui with a Bagobo Sangi. Like Rick pointed out the shape is similar and let me think that both are utility knifes.

Thanks Detlef for the copy from van Z.
I hope that Albert is reading this thread so he can share where he found the name siraui and how his source defines it.
Is the "variation I" pictured somewhere else in van Z? If you google it you will find several other like this described as a siraui?

Michael

I may have missed it Michael, but i took a good look through Zonneveld last night for "type I" and couldn't find any similar knives with this keris-like dress.
:shrug:

Thanks David,

Then I don't know how to proceed being away from my main reference books for another 1,5 week. Let's hope Albert or someone else who have them available can jump in.

Michael

I'm glad my thread-resurrection has stimulated some good discussion on the use of siraui... :)

I wonder though, why are there such fine examples, and some of them dressed like keris, if it was simply a utility knife?

The possibility of two forms, the often fullered ones and the ones with a choil(?) due to the edge dropping a lil from the tang... is intriguing. Maybe the siraui form was taken in a martial direction from the utility origins... ? :shrug:


Someday I'd love to own a few, if only for a little bit... Sumatran weapons just don't cease on seizing my attention.

When I am back home I will try to add some more information on this. I checked when the "variation I" first appeared on the forum and it seems to be in this thread.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1897

Somehow several sources named it a siraui at that time.

Michael

Well, while waiting for an update on this matter, I went ahead and got myself a modern made pisau that appears to be the same blade-style as one of the two types of siraui.

What do you guys think?

The form looks the same, just smaller; more like the size I would expect to see in a korambit .

Would size be a factor with this weapon ?

I agree it does seem pretty small (but very handy). I think maybe blade length would matter since it feels like a slicer... and if one is to slice with a knife, a longer blade edge would definitely help. Whether or not it is a utility knife that can be easily used to fight with, or a fighting knife of a less-than-conventional style, or even two distinct types of knives, one for martial use and the other for mundane tasks... it seems like this is definitely a slicer if held conventionally...

However in pistol grip-like hold (like a badik) it punctures quite well without slipping (at least vs cardboard). Edge-up pistol grip feels odd to me... but maybe that is how it's meant to be used? Or maybe as a precision slicer.... I don't know.

I eagerly await a larger example to play with.

:shrug:

The (Javanese) knife you tried is similar, but as Rick pointed out much smaller, which limits the comparison for the different grips.
I am back home again and I just played with my full size knife, the version not pictured in van Z, trying out:

1) Hammer edge down.
2) Hammer edge up.
3) Icepick edge out.
4) Icepick edge in.
5) Pommel in palm push dagger style.
6) Pencil grip edge out.
7) Pencil grip edge in.

The most comfortable grip (for me with the design of my knife's blade) is 1) followed by 3), which is the same grips that are shown with the small (Javanese) knife in the post above. The least comfortable grips are 4) followed by 7) and 2). The reason for this is that the underside of the blade, closest to the handle, cuts in to my palm when I am holding it in those grips. For 2) I can adapt it by holding it lower on the handle and sliding in my thumb at the uncomfortable 90 degree blade point. For 4) I cannot do this.

My conclusion is that utility wise it is most comfortable in 1), with the thumb resting on the back of the blade.

Hello Michael,

agree complete!

Regards,

Detlef

With this siraui I have found that the most comfortable and natural feeling grip is a punching-knife type grip like a badik. In this case, it would be edge-up... which is not conventional in most places, but definitely not entirely 100% unheard of.

The conventional blade-up edge-out grip is do-able, but the blade curves far back, so that cutting with it conventionally in fighting is awkward (since edge is set angled far back). In an ice-pich sort of grip, the blade is also angled back so that stabbing and slashing seems a little awkward as it's about 45 degrees from the forearm, so pretty far from the more conventional vertical/perpendicular position from the bottom of the fist found on most generic knife design.

Kukulz

What happens if you try a curving slash with this blade? Something like throwing a frisbee, with the edge out, and not letting go of the sirau?

F

Hi
here is my piece of it.
think it belongs to the same genus.

Huh?

Do you mean pistol-grip, edge-up, except oriented horizontally so that if I am holding it in my right hand, I am going left to right?



BTW I've been informed that these are called Pisau Raut on Java and Pisau Wali in peninsular Malaysia?

Ok let us stop this complete speculation on how this knife is used. It is quite simple the blade is in upward position so that the natural momentum of the upward or straight thrust cuts into the victim to do the most damage. It's a thrusting dagger the same as the Moro gunong. Form follows function nothing else :cool: ;). The same reason you see certain types of military knives and bayonets with the cutting edge up it's simple physics.

Well Lew, i think the biggest bit of speculation going on here is that this knife is intended to be used as a weapon at all. It is still my suspicion that this is primarily a work knife. The edge position might well be oriented to some specific work duty. I really can't say. But i also don't think we can apply any specific form of martial technique or grip to this blade either... :shrug:

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

:shrug: But then again there are two varieties of such knives.

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being... :shrug:

*sigh* ok, I see how it is. Allow me to repeat myself...
"Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand [...] It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber."

Utility? Sure, the siraui I have could whittle and shave material when gripped pistol grip edge up with index and thumb pinching the ricasso region. In a conventional grip and the thumb on the spine I can slice and carve with it. I guess another utilitarian function could be stabbing a pig, or cutting a chicken's neck... But it feels most comfortable for stabbing, similar to a badik. I don't know of any pistol-grip utility knife designs...

Please consider...

[1] Most pistol grip knives I've encountered are meant mainly for people-killing. This one also feels that way. I don't personally know a punching-style or pistol grip knife meant primarily for utility.

[2] Also consider that there seems to be 2 forms of this knife. In fact you brought this up earlier in the thread. There's the non-fullered 90 degree choil blade often with a longer and straighter grip and there's the variation with a fuller and gradual choil and a more curved pistol-grip like handle.

[3] Keris-like sheaths. I could be wrong but I feel, with a keris-like sheath, there is a certain status and weapon implication there (though keris were and are not primarily weapons anymore, right?).

[4] Being a smaller blade does not make it a non-weapon. Look at karambits, Chinese daggers, small bichwas & katars, Sgian dubh, etc. Sometimes it is the hidden weapon that is the most dangerous due to surprise and concealability.

That's why I think, based on the considerations and the ergonomics of the siraui right here next to me in my possession, that it feels more fighting oriented. I think my points and my sense of ergonomics are valid.



Yet, you feel that I'm wrong and question my ability to imagine a utility role for it. You seem positive that there is a utility role for this knife. Please explain why... I'm new to the world Sumatran blades and in any case always willing to learn. I got no issue with admitting when I'm wrong, but show me.

What makes you think it is definitely a utility blade first and foremost?

This particular form of knife is a bit outside my experience, I've seen a few, and sold a few, but I really do not know what this particular form of Sumatran knife is used for.

However, there are knives in Jawa and Bali that are extremely similar to this knife form, and those Javanese and Balinese knives are work knives, mostly used for working rotan, I believe.Some years ago I knew a tukang wrongko who favoured this style of knife for detail work in the carving of wrongkos.In Bali they are used in the preparation of offerings.

In my experience, knives from the entire Indonesian area that are used as weapons have blade geometry that presents a grind on either side of the blade, knives that have a chisel grind, as this knife presently under discussion does, are work knives. In Jawa and Bali any work knife that must be kept sharp is kept in a scabbard, very often a scabbard that is suited to waist carry in belt, setagen, or sarung folds.