Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
-   Ethnographic Weapons (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Nimcha: opinions and translations? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4782)

Tatyana Dianova 19th June 2007 04:08 PM

Nimcha: opinions and translations?
 
6 Attachment(s)
I bought recently a nice nimcha. It is a big sword: a bit more than 1 meter overall. The handle seems to be from rhino horn, decorated with silver ring with enamel. The similar in style silver and enamel detail is on the top of the handle. The guard is of interesting form and it is decorated with gold koftgary.
The blade seems to be of Europenian origin. There are North Italian blade marks (dots, eyelashes and cross between them). But I wasn’t able to find similar blade in any of my books. It seems to be older, then 19th century. Can somebody tell me the age of the blade and have somebody seen anything similar? The age of the whole sword? Its origin?
There are also chiseled Arabic ornaments on the both sides of the blade. They consist of 4 different types of flowers and Arabic inscriptions. Maybe somebody can translate them (they are not very well preserved, especially on the side with blade marks). There is also an Arabic inscription on the back of the blade: the name of the master or owner?
Any help will be much appreciated.

Jens Nordlunde 19th June 2007 04:56 PM

Hi Tatyana,

It seems like an interesting nimcha you have added to your collection – congratulations:). I don’t know much about nimchas, and I cant help you with the translation, but I have a few comments. The quillons are strange, but I think the way they are made must protect the hand quite well. The blade seems to be old, and it could be European as well, although I am not convinced. It could be Yemen or East Africa, but lets hear the specialists on this area. ‘Eyelashes’ can be seen on blades from many places, one of these places is India, and there you often see each eyelash start and end with three dots. There seem to be ‘three dots’ on other places on the blade – without the lashes – are there, and if yes how many, and are they only on one side of the blade?

Jens

ariel 19th June 2007 06:39 PM

Very intriguing.
The "stumps" on the langets ( or, in this case, are they quillons? :D ) look like a transitional step between the classic North African and the Zanzibari forms.
The "eyleashes with dots" were, as Jens notices, as popular in the area then as words " Made in China" are now.
As a matter of fact, the contour of the blade is kind of shashka-ish. There were a lot of shashka blades from Daghestan, many with the gurda mark, in Southern Arabia toward the end of the 19th century. Etching one with more "local" decoratios was a piece of baklawa then as it is now.
The bottom line, until some compassionate soul translates the inscription, you are in the datk. But then...... All will be revealed!

Tim Simmons 19th June 2007 08:42 PM

What a tragedy this very nice sword has been parted from its scabbard. I wonder if this was originally a fairly basic trade blade beautified in N. Africa. Some say girls are better at fishing also :D . :cool:

Tatyana Dianova 19th June 2007 09:17 PM

Thank you all for your comments!
Jens, all the dots from the blade marks you may see on the picture above. There are none on the other side of the blade or in any other place.

Jens Nordlunde 19th June 2007 10:42 PM

This means that all the dot markings are on the 'left' side of the blade - am I right?

Jens

Battara 19th June 2007 11:12 PM

A fascinating nimcha. Only one I have seen with gold and enamel. I would guess that the scabbard was in velet and possibly solid gold with enamel mounts, possibly sold in later times for the gold content. The last part is conjecture. :shrug:

Tatyana Dianova 20th June 2007 10:12 AM

Ok, the scabbard is gone ... and it is gone forever...

Jens, I think you are right about the left side (the dot markings are on the opposite side of the blade if you look at the pictures 1 and 2).

Kirill Rivkin have sent me his opinion on the sword, which I find quite logical. Quote:
"I highly doubt that the blade is european in origin. The style of
eyelashes and the fact that the pattern is repeated many times suggest a
local copy. Arabic engravings on blade's sides look acid etched to me,
which likely indicates post 1860 origin. On the blade's back side there is
an engraving which seems to be year and signature, also I would not say
anything conclusive without better pictures. Acid etching on the blade
is most likely citations from Quran. Similar blades were produced by
almost everyone, the font does not seem to be Nastaliq, which means it is
likely to be non-persian. It does not seem like a classical caucasian
work either. I suspect it was made in late XIXth century in some part of
the Ottoman Empire, North Africa or other."
And also, in the next letter:
"I have looked at a few pieces and it seems that Zanzibar/North Africa was a little bit faster in adopting etching - 1820s or later, but the style still seems a little bit later than this to me."

I will try to make the better pictures of the inscription on the back side and post them later.

ALEX 20th June 2007 11:18 AM

This is VERY NICE SWORD Tatjana.
According to A.Tirri description, this is: "...Moroccan Nimcha, 19th Cent.... with 3 downturned guillions and one upturned guillion which serves as a hand guard. Rhino horn was used to augment the aura of virility of the sword bearer. Blades were mostly imported from Europe..."
The hilt does look like Rhino. And the guard is of interesting form. I have similarly formed guard on a Spanish sword (will post it next), but it has a bar connecting two ends together.
The writing is indeed in Arabic, but of an old Arabic form/alphabet. Not easy to read, but the etched sentence has word Allah, and is most likely the Quranic verse (as pointed by Kirill). The chiseled word (on the right side of the 4th picture) reads "Hussein" (which is also a name of the Prophet Mohammad grandson).

Tatyana Dianova 20th June 2007 07:12 PM

5 Attachment(s)
OK, here are the promised pictures of the chiseled inscriptions on the back of the blade. One of the sentences seems to contain a date (12??).
Also I would like to share a couple of professional pictures sent to me by seller of this nimcha. When I have seen them, I immediately fell in love with this sword :-)

Jim McDougall 20th June 2007 07:53 PM

This is indeed a classic example of the Moroccan sa'if commonly referred to as a 'nimcha'. The hilt form with its distinct quillon system is characteristic of these swords and has existed in regions of the Maghreb littoral since the 17th century. The hilt form itself apparantly evolved from early Italian influence carried via the well established trade routes into North Africa, and is thought to have influenced other hilts such as the Sinhalese kastane in the more eastern extensions of those trade routes. This was discussed by Anthony North of the Victoria & Albert I believe in about 1975.

The stamped semi circles and three dot arrangements do indeed reflect the early markings associated with Genoan and possibly other N.Italian blade makers. Through trade these distinct markings diffused to other blade centers including, as Ariel mentions, the Caucasian locations. In my opinion this blade form seems consistant with trade blades, possibly German or European which seem to occur on swords in Arabia and India c.end of 18th century to early 19th, with the so called 'eyelash' or 'sickle' marks often on them. The German blades on Scottish basket hilts of the 17th century have these markings, and the markings are of course well known in India, on the Afghan paluouar the marking is almost a constant, in the Caucusus these marks bring the quality term 'gurda' to so marked blades.

I agree with Kirill on his assessment of the acid etched inscriptions which were probably applied later in the 19th century. While the process was certainly known prior to this, it was then that it became more prevalent, especially in Ottoman regions among others. The Arabic script in motif on the face of the blade bears some resemblance to the thuluth applied in this manner in regions of the Sudan, though I am not implying this is thuluth, but one of the scripts used in this manner.

This is a beautiful example Tatyana!! :) Although the scabbard is absent, it does seem these are often found that way as the leather scabbards often do not survive. As with most weapons of North Africa, refurbishing was a constant process, and the integrity of the weapon itself is typically carried in the blade, which as we can see, reflects its history through its working life. Fascinating !!! :)

All best regards,
Jim

Valjhun 20th June 2007 07:57 PM

Yes, I agree. Trully a very nice piece you have. I vote for Morocco.

I would suggest that it is maybe a composite piece. I mean that the crossguard was not initially made for that precise sword. I can't immagine the original master would put toghether koftgari (or goldplating whatever) and enammel techique. Nevertheless very nice piece.

Is the pommel cap also enammeled? Can you post a photo?

I also think that the blade is not european.

The hilt does look like rhino to me. Try to do a close up shot with flash.

Tatyana Dianova 20th June 2007 09:11 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Thanks everybody for interesting replies!

I have found similar nimcha example on this forum, belonging to RSWORD, and this sword also has gold koftgari AND enamel decorations!
Please take a look:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128

I also have made a requested pictures:

Tim Simmons 20th June 2007 09:17 PM

The enamel work reminds me of work from the Kabilye . I will try and show what mean.

Battara 20th June 2007 09:23 PM

When RSword brought his piece over to my place, I tested the gold mounts and determined that they were over 10k and heavey!

Congratulations on your piece - I'm envious - not many around.

ErnestoJuan 23rd June 2007 02:10 PM

Now that is a beautiful piece of art. Stunning to say the least.
I solely collect koumiyas but I will gladly make an exception in case you would like to sell it.

( big sigh..............)


Ernst

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 4th September 2016 04:26 PM

Clearly Moroccan. The three big signals are the stud on top of the pommel and the squared off right angle bend in the knuckle guard, thirdly is the upright way the pommel sits as opposed to pointing down slightly ....as does the Zanzibari variant...Your Nimcha has the unusual addition of a two prong guard that I see only rarely. There is another two pronger at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30

ariel 4th September 2016 07:40 PM

I think ( word of caution!) that there is a date on the spine:12( for sure) and then ....58 (???)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 5th September 2016 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel
I think ( word of caution!) that there is a date on the spine:12( for sure) and then ....58 (???)

We are this year 1437 in al Hijri... :shrug:

Kubur 5th September 2016 11:55 AM

For me this blade is much much older than the 19th c.
It's a gorgeous example...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 5th September 2016 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
For me this blade is much much older than the 19th c.
It's a gorgeous example...

I think you may be right...but if we are going by the so called date on the back of the blade ...we need to know what that is... because it is not clear.

Kubur 5th September 2016 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I think you may be right...but if we are going by the so called date on the back of the blade ...we need to know what that is... because it is not clear.

yep
the date on the back is engraved, the inscription on the blade is chisled like the Seljuk or Mamluk blades in The arts of the Muslim knight. It's a Moroccan nimcha but an old one. The inscription on the back was probably added later.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 5th September 2016 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
yep
the date on the back is engraved, the inscription on the blade is chisled like the Seljuk or Mamluk blades in The arts of the Muslim knight. It's a Moroccan nimcha but an old one. The inscription on the back was probably added later.

It is always very tenuous to place a date on a sword because many blades were switched from one hilt to another. dates became added...They assumed the realms of make believe occasionally. Notwithstanding the inscribed date what are the clues to age ? How old can the blade be? How much age is visible in the hilt? Half way down the Knuckle Guard there is a signature or date in a small button sized roundel.....what is that?
I add in retrospect that this is an interesting item. An aristocrats sword thus the addition of Gold work a Rhino hilt and the enamel work known as Champleve...on the stud on top of the Pommel and at the base ring. There is light overall wear suggesting to my eye 18th C.

Such a pity there is no Scabbard but no doubt that would have been richly decorated in similar style. The pitons or projections on the guard are intriguing and original not added according to the decorative style...The bite marks on the blade offer the suggestion of the blade being of Genoa ..I leave all suggestions wide open for comments.. :shrug:

Evgeny_K 27th May 2019 12:10 AM

6 Attachment(s)
Gents,
What could you say about this sword? Looks like markings are same?
This sword was found on the Black Sea coast of Russia - a region that was under the influence of Genoa.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 27th May 2019 12:40 AM

I agree Genoa fits … as I noted earlier there is often a little button about two thirds the way down the knuckle guard with writing on it...this weapon has one... cant make out the letters but it could be a date or makers mark... great to see this thread still going.. :shrug:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall 27th May 2019 05:35 AM

It is indeed good to see this thread come up again, and most interesting sword which appears to be possibly what remains of a 'nimcha' of North Africa. The quillons of course do not seem exactly the same, but there were numbers of variant hilt systems.While the markings seem to have the triple dots and configuration of what is typically regarded as the 'sickle mark' of Genoa, this marking in variation was widely copied by other blade making centers.

It seems that blade making centers in Styria much favored these marks and applied them to their blades. It is known that Austrian blades had gained much favor in North Africa by the 19th c. and many filtered into entrepots there, so seeing them on nimchas was not unusual.

It is difficult however to imagine how a nimcha (if this indeed is one of these) with Styrian blade, ended up in the Russian Black Sea region. Genoa had diminished in its colonies and blade traffic by the 18th c. and while the reputation and of course influences lingered on, many of the blades were now typically produced elsewhere for trade.

We might surmise that Barbary Pirates and trade interaction in the Mediterranean might have networked this sword into the context in which it was found, but that would remain an assumption.

TVV 27th May 2019 09:24 AM

The Ottoman Empire had significant presence along the North-East Black Sea Coast so it is not improbable that a Maghreb blade from the far western reaches of the Empire in Africa would travel all the way to the Black Sea during Ottoman naval activities. Interesting find.

Evgeny_K 27th May 2019 05:52 PM

2 Attachment(s)
This form of the crossguard is specific to Moroccan sabers? Could it be a Genoese sword (not only the blade)?
Here are some additional pics of markings.

Kubur 27th May 2019 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
This form of the crossguard is specific to Moroccan sabers? Could it be a Genoese sword (not only the blade)?

You're right.
Moroccan swords have 3 quillons down.
The tang should be thinner, straight without peg holes.
The sword presented here had a grip made of two pieces of horn like Turkish swords or Caucasian kindjals.
Conclusion either you have an Italian sword or a local sword with an Italian blade.

Evgeny_K 27th May 2019 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
You're right.
Moroccan swords have 3 quillons down.
The tang should be thinner, straight without peg holes.
The sword presented here had a grip made of two pieces of horn like Turkish swords or Caucasian kindjals.
Conclusion either you have an Italian sword or a local sword with an Italian blade.

Thank you! "Genoese version" is confirmed by the fact that this sword was found at the alleged location of the Genoese trading post of the Copa.

Jim McDougall 27th May 2019 10:45 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Thank you Evgeny for that vital bit of data with suggested provenance for this sword, which helps a great deal.
Here I would note that 'Copa' (Slavyansk na Kubani) which is actually located on the Protoka tributary of the Kuban R.) was indeed a Genoan trade colony from early 15th c. for the prominent Jewish Genoan family de Ghisolfi.
However these regions in the Taman Peninsula were seized by the Crimean Khanate in 1483, and these settlements largely abandoned until the Khanate built a fort in the 'Copa' area in 1747.

In 1783, the Ottomans took over.

This seems to be well in accord with Teodor's note on the possibility of a Maghrebi sword as far east as these Black Sea regions, thus quite feasible.
While the quillons on this example (and the tang holes in the blade) may not be entirely in line with most 'nimcha' examples, it must be remembered that these Maghreb swords typically used European blades.

In looking at the possibility of this being a Genoan sword in entirety, I looked at "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) and found three 17th c. Italian swords (#543,44, 547) with similar quillon arrangements. While similar they are not necessarily convincing.

The Maghrebi nimcha did evolve from Italian hilt forms it seems, and there are variations of both their prototypes as well as those in North Africa. There are differences in the number of quillons beween Moroccan and Algerian (if I recall Louis-Pierre's paper) not to mention those with guard ring, pitons etc.

If the Genoan character in this region was diminished as reflected by the history of this area as described, especially by the 18th century period which seems to be that of this sword, then why would it be Genoan? The seeds for such influences had widely diffused into these areas as well as into the Caucusus (the 'gurda' sickle marks on Chechen blades).

By 1783, it sounds as if the Ottoman presence and ultimate conquest of this area (and others in Black Sea) was profound thus the presence of a Maghrebi sword in this context and period sounds quite logical.

The similarity to the North Italian (not necessarily Genoan) hilt forms shown is notable, as well as the fuller character is much as seen on many Italian blades of the 17th into 18th c.However, it must be remembered that the earlier import of blades from Italy (often Genoa) into the Maghreb had become such a tradition many blades were simply labeled 'Genoan' even if they weren't.

I remain with the idea that Genoan classification to this sword is not necessarily the case just because the area was once a Genoan trade location, and the find is more likely to have come from Ottoman presence there in events and actions of the 18th c.

The attached are images of the Italian swords (17th c) and two examples of Maghrebi nimchas. The guard of the sword discussed may have had the 'outer quillon' broken off.

Kubur 27th May 2019 11:17 PM

Hi Jim,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While the quillons on this example (and the tang holes in the blade) may not be entirely in line with most 'nimcha' examples, it must be remembered that these Maghreb swords typically used European blades.

Have you seen nimcha tangs? I did.
No holes so far.
But as you said some blades might have been reused and tang holes cannot be excluded.
Remember that trade blades were sold new sometimes if not always.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While similar they are not necessarily convincing.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The guard of the sword discussed may have had the 'outer quillon' broken off.

Disagree, it's the first thing that I looked, no space for another one.

Jim McDougall 27th May 2019 11:18 PM

Addendum: The Sickle Marks
 
3 Attachment(s)
I wanted to add some detail on the markings seen on the sword we are discussing in the previous posts.
This marking, primarily three dots at either end of a typically dentated arc, have usually been associated with Genoa, as many of these were often situated with GENOA with them. Genoa was a key port of course and with sword and edged weapon blades these markings seem to have been applied perhaps in some sort of guild or other type export mark.

Soon, as with many such markings, their presence was considered a mark of quality, and their use expanded to many blade making centers in that regard.
As mentioned earlier, in the Caucusus, the use of this 'sickle' mark was adopted as a quality mark, and the blades with it were called 'gurda' (=good blade).
These markings were used in variation in many North Italian centers(not necessarily Genoa) as well as soon adopted by makers in Styrian centers and of course Solingen. Native artisans copied them in India, Arabia, North Africa and others.

Jim McDougall 27th May 2019 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Jim,



Have you seen nimcha tangs? I did.
No holes so far.
But as you said some blades might have been reused and tang holes cannot be excluded.
Remember that trade blades were sold new sometimes if not always.



Agreed.



Disagree, it's the first thing that I looked, no space for another one.


Good points Kubur, and in fact I have not actually seen nimcha tangs so I would defer to your experience at having seen them. As most European blades, trade or otherwise, seem to have holes for hilt mounting for rivets it seemed likely that nimchas using European blades would have them also.

With the quillon question, in looking closer I see what you mean, it is unlikely one is missing. However even more important, the little 'langet' like protrusion at guard center on nimcha hilts is missing. While one of the examples I showed has barely a vestigial nub there, it seems important to note.
Perhaps this more supports a sword from a member of Ottoman forces which is of another form using a European trade blade, again in these actions in late 18th c. even if not from the Maghreb. Whatever the case, I don't think this is a Genoan sword, but it is I think 18th c.

Jim McDougall 28th May 2019 03:48 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Just for the record, it seemed I had recalled instances of nimcha which indeed had two downturned quillons rather than the three which appear standard on the Moroccan versions.
Apparently in Algeria, there are examples of nimcha hilts with just two quillons downturned, and I found this noted in " Islamic Weapons" Maghrib to Moghul", Anthno Tirri, 2003, p. 42-43, fig. 21A);
"...Algeria produced a version of the Moroccan nimcha but with two basic differences. The Algerian nimcha has only two downturned quillons and the blade is usually a locally produced flyssa style blade".

The illustration I have attached is from "Les Armes Blanches du Monde Islamique" (Alain Jacob, 1985. p.51). ..an Algerian nimcha with two downturned quillons.

Clearly the sword we are examining does not have a flyssa blade, but it does have two quillons, not three.

In Tirri (p.42, op.cit.) the word 'usually' regarding the use of flyssa blades is key. It seems reasonable that in Algerian coastal regions, particularly those involved with Ottoman naval/pirate activity, the blade of a flyssa would not be preferred, but the use of a sturdy European blade would.

Briggs (1965) in his article on European blades in Tuareg weapons also illustrates a nimcha blade (similar fullering), but it appears to have a Moroccan hilt. What is interesting is that Briggs was in Algeria, not Morocco, yet a Moroccan style example was found there. Obviously, there was an interpolation of the two hilt forms in the Maghrebi littoral.

I attached illustration of our sword in discussion for comparison rather than having to keep scrolling back to it.


JUST FOUND ANOTHER(bottom illustration).
From "Arts of the Muslim Knight" ed. B.Mohammed, 2008, p.18
'...from Algeria, Oran, Ottoman period, c. 1720-32'

While these quillons are not of course identical, they do illustrate the proclivity to dual quillons in Algerian hilts of the nimcha style.

kronckew 28th May 2019 09:01 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Most Nimcha appear to be fairly short (nimcha I recall implies 'small' or 'short') but some are more lengthy and suitable for mounted use. Like my one with a hair horn grip like the earlier ones, just not as pretty. It has a 35in. blade. ref: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha

Evgeny_K 28th May 2019 10:21 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While similar they are not necessarily convincing.

Dear Jim, it seems that you are right and there is a wishful thinking from my part. In any case, I would like to correctly identify this item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The guard of the sword discussed may have had the 'outer quillon' broken off.

It seems to me that there wasn't a third quillon. Please look at additional pictures.

Jim McDougall 28th May 2019 04:06 PM

Thank you Evgeny for the response, and Kubur has noted (#33) that no third quillon presence seems evident. The reason I brought up the dual quillons was to support that such variation did exist in Maghrebi nimcha, and were apparently relegated to Algerian versions (the Moroccan had three quillons).

I well understand wishful thinking in examining and identifying a weapon, but for me truth and correct as possible classification also have their own virtues. Often the investigation of a weapon brings to light wonderful historic aspects of its presence in certain contexts which might not otherwise have been revealed.

The fact that this is probably not a Genoan weapon indigenous to this Black Sea region as it dates long after Genoan colonial presence had dissipated there does not preclude the fact it might still be an Italian blade. However, its means of arriving in the area it was found MAY have been through the conduit of the Ottoman forces with Maghebi weapons in this region in the 18th c.
Even if found to be a weapon which indeed came from these Black Sea regions, the blade still could be North Italian or Styrian, as these centers produced blades well through the 18th c. These same blades which often reached North Africa also went to many foreign ports including East European, Russian, Balkan etc.

Whatever the case, the fact that this sword was found in situ in the location you describe gives it stellar provenance on its own merits.

Evgeny_K 30th May 2019 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The fact that this is probably not a Genoan weapon indigenous to this Black Sea region as it dates long after Genoan colonial presence had dissipated there does not preclude the fact it might still be an Italian blade. However, its means of arriving in the area it was found MAY have been through the conduit of the Ottoman forces with Maghebi weapons in this region in the 18th c.
Even if found to be a weapon which indeed came from these Black Sea regions, the blade still could be North Italian or Styrian, as these centers produced blades well through the 18th c. These same blades which often reached North Africa also went to many foreign ports including East European, Russian, Balkan etc.

Whatever the case, the fact that this sword was found in situ in the location you describe gives it stellar provenance on its own merits.

Thank you, Jim!

Jim McDougall 1st June 2019 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K
Thank you, Jim!


Absolutely Evgeny! My pleasure and thank you for the opportunity to look into this great sword!


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:31 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.