eBay MORO KRIS WOOTZ??
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT
Item is closed on eBay.
I am about to show my ignorance on this moro kris.
Was wootz ever used on the blades of a Kris? :confused:
I need help on this. Kris forum experts help me out on this.

While this may indeed be a laminated blade, it is hardly wootz and i don't believe it is a Datu ceremonial piece either. Higher end tourist kris made in the late 20th century, most probably.
I have seen main beautifully laminated Moro Kris, but my understanding of wootz (which is, i admit, limited) is that it is something wholly different from the construction of the kris. I've never seen one with what i know of as wootz steel.

Highly unlikely that we will ever see an authentic antique (100yrs+) Kris made entirely from wootz .

Having said that I do wonder why not though what with the extensive trade throughout the area . Wootz cakes must have been available in the main trading ports .

Moro Pandays lacked knowledge of the forging process ?
They believed their steel was superior ?
The patterning wasn't important to them ? ......... :confused:



I'll bet Mr. Pendray could make a beautiful contemporary kris blade from wootz .............. :D

THANKS!
 

mechesh;
whew! I thought I was mistaken on wootz blades. With my limited knowledge on Kris blades but I do know a little about wootz and did not think this was possible.

RICK;
You are right on Mr. Pendray I saw a picture of one he made with a jade hilt and boy was it nice. :) Will try and find it a get back and post it.

I've not read about wootz "technology" getting as far as the Philippines, and the seller did qualify the comment with a parenthetical addition of "layered, laminated, watered, Damascus". As we've seen, the terms are often innacurately used interchangeably.

Moro weapons are not my thing, but my first thought when I saw the auction was "tourist". The fittings just have that bazaar look to them, designed to attract the eye, and the blade looks crude. For the life of me, I can't see anything I would describe as laminate construction, let alone wootz or watered steel.

The pattern on this blade was made with a process of battery acid etching, and soil burying. Ive gone through a number of touristy and fake weapons, on whcih this has been done. A shame, as many had good hardened blades, on the thin side, but functional enough. But just the detail the guys making these things think collectors are looking for.

As for wootz, Ive heard (now Im not big on metallurgy, and its been years since Ive read much), that once its heated above a certain temp the pattern is permanently lost. However, to forge at the lower temps in which to keep the pattern, one has a tight temp range, in which you can either go to cool and the blade becomes brittle and breaks during forging, or to hot and the pattern is lost. Given this tight range of temperature. I could easily see a Panday, not knowing exactly what kind of steel it is, and forging it as he's forged a hundred other kris, and losing the pattern with the hotter temp. Or on the flip side, thinking the tight temp range to achieve the pattern, not worth the effort when pattern welding is more understood. Or on the flip side of that, perhaps there was ceremonial/talismanic beliefs making one stay with traditional steels. Who knows. But on the flip side, when looking at trading patterns, why werent there more wootz Chinese blades, or wootz Dhas, etc... Two areas closer to India. Particularly for steel, Ive seen chinese pots, European stock, and local Malay/Indo sources cited in various manifests. While British would bring in Indian made cloth, I havent seen records of Indian made steel. How common was wootz in Britain?

I would guess that the forging of wootz was a tightly guarded secret. That knowledge was not exported to other regions so that is probably why you don't see wootz popping up too often in other mounts, unless, it is a trade blade that has already been forged. Then you do see wootz popping up in a variety of mounts.

Wootz
 

I suspect that it was not very popular as a blade material Battara.
Aside from forging as Rick says I would think English standards required a much more flexible blade .

On the other hand, I suspect that once in a while a wootz piece could have been traded and used on a blade. Take this example of a gunong I have:

Now here is the close up of the blade (looks like wootz, doesn't it):

Sorry Battara

That's a folded blade, not wootz.

I agree with Mick, Jose. That looks forge-folded. Is it polished like a Japanese blade, or etched like a keris?

Wow. What an interesting blade. :)

Are the white specs just dust in the scan, or is that actually in the steel?

A poor picture of a Tulwar with a wootz blade.
Steve

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../wootz2800.jpg

Yup: THIS is wootz.
There is a big difference between crystalline damascus (wootz) the beauty of which depends on a narrow range of impurities (wolfram, most likely) and heating/cooling temperatures and mechanical damascus that is constructed by combining different steels into a single blade and then polishing/etching the surface.
Wootz is a native Indian product. As such it was used by Indo-Persian bladesmiths as well as by the Persia proper masters who obtained raw materials from India.

Wootz ingots were rarely bought by the Caucasian and Ottoman bladesmiths and this is the reason why wootz is practically confined to India/Persia. I have never seen real wootz outside of that area.
Which kind of Damascus was superior? Mechanically it made very little difference for the average warrior; esthetically it depended on the personal taste; urban legends attributed incredible properties to either variety (such as " sliced through a nail" which is exactly what the Ginsu people are telling us about their kitchen knives) but the proof is lacking in most of the cases.
Ultimately, it is the swordsman that makes the difference, not the sword.

Hesitant to call my blade wootz, yet hesitant to call this pattern welded only. The white flecks are the scanner glass surface. It is not etched like the Javanese, yet not polished like the Japanese. In any case, it is the most heavily laminiated steel I have seen on a PI/Moro piece.

Jose

Having the privilege of handling that lovely gunong of yours, I can tell you it is not wootz. Rather, I believe it is a type of pattern welding, possibly 3 plate, not unlike Chinese sanmai.

Oh I agree. Having some wootz pieces from Turkey and Persia, Wootz is a little different. Though it does look a little wootzish. Many tulwars have incredible lamination, though not that same as wootz. The first picture is from a Kurdish jambiya I have (from Artzi :D ) with Persian wootz, the second is a Turkish jambiya (again from Artzi :D ) with Turkish wootz. As you can see, there are differences in the multiple lamination technique and wootz, though similar in some cases:

Pendray Wootz Kris
 

quote by RICK:
"I'll bet Mr. Pendray could make a beautiful contemporary kris blade from wootz .............. :D"



RICK;
I found this picture of the Kris that Al Pendray made out of his wootz.
Sorry for the image size but it is all I could find. :( I have been searching for it for a while. It has a jade handle that was made by someone other than
Mr. Pendray but do not know just who, for someone in Hawaii if I remember correctly, will keep on searching.

Rick

I found it! :) along with this writeup.
The price may not be allowed, if so Andrew or RICK remove it. :)

Sculpted Jade
and Wootz Kris
"An exquisite collaboration between Broadwell and Alfred Pendray. Features Pendray's Wootz damascus steel forged to shape on the 20" blade, including the raised center ridge. Exceptional forging! Jade handle with bronze fittings. All sculpting and carving, as well as all blade grinding and finishing, done by Broadwell. By far the most difficult and time consuming art project to date, this magnificent piece was commissioned as a showpiece for a private collection."

Similar Piece: $8000
Photos: Point Seven,
S Broadwell

Thanks for posting that photo, Gene. No problem with the price, as it is not for sale, having been made for a private collection apparantly.

It's nice to know what some of the upper-end custom stuff sells for.

Although not traditional, that's one perdy piece. :)

Thanks Gene !
That's a very beautiful piece of work . :)
I sure would like to see some detail shots of this blade .

David Broadwell
 

Rick
I did not find any closeups of the blade but I did find
Mr. David Broadwell :D
(David) the maker, along with Al Pendray of the Kris and I have asked him to join into this discussion of his Kris.
Now that the forum is back up and running (Thanks Dr. Lee!)
So all you forum folks please welcome David, when he signs in, and ask away about the kris.

I would agree that this is indeed a pretty blade, but for $8000 i could buy myself one hell of a nice kris/keris. :)

This begs the question , what constitutes a good eight thousand dollar keris ? :D

I appreciate the introduction, Gene. Yes, the wootz and jade kris is mine, made for a collector a few years ago. This was my second sword, the first being a boarding cutlass. Both swords were made as interpretive art pieces, not as historical reproductions.
As Gene said, this blade is made from Al Pendray's wootz. Al forged the blade to shape with all its hills and valleys, and forged in the raised center ridge. Al is unusually skilled with his hammer and I received a pretty clean billet. I fitted the kris with bronze trim and a British Columbian nephrite jade handle. The steel does have a pattern, but like most wootz it takes some tricks with a camera to get the pattern to show easily. Pattern welded is a breeze to photograph compared to wootz! Unfortunately I do not have any more pictures of this sword including close ups showing the pattern.
The man who commissioned this sword grew up in Indonesia and obviously likes the kris. He requested my style of sculpting and the wootz over a pattern welded "damascus" steel. That's why you see more of an Art Nouveau interpretation rather than a traditional look.
Gene had asked about etching the wootz. I used a diluted ferric chloride solution. It actually took three etchings to get it right, and I had to refinish and polish the blade each time. Wootz is etched by a quick wiping of the etchant followed by a rinse and oiling. I finally got my wife out in the yard with a garden hose and I would wipe on the etchant and she would hose down the blade. You can't let the ferric stay on the steel more than a few seconds or you loose the crystiline carbide structure that makes the pattern. Wootz takes a surface finish, rather than the topographical etch more commonly used on pattern welded steels.
If there are more questions about this or any other knife or sword I've made, ask away.

David

Welcome to the forum, David! It's great to have another cutler posting here.

Your keris is beautiful, as are the other items on your website. In fact, I just spent a fair bit of time enjoying that site!

Hope to hear from you often. :)

David, your work is impressive. I bow in your presence. :D

And you, sir, are too modest. ;)

(BTW, got your emails.)

Polishing wootz
 

"Gene had asked about etching the wootz. I used a diluted ferric chloride solution. It actually took three etchings to get it right, and I had to refinish and polish the blade each time. Wootz is etched by a quick wiping of the etchant followed by a rinse and oiling. I finally got my wife out in the yard with a garden hose and I would wipe on the etchant and she would hose down the blade. You can't let the ferric stay on the steel more than a few seconds or you loose the crystiline carbide structure that makes the pattern. Wootz takes a surface finish, rather than the topographical etch more commonly used on pattern welded steels."

DAVID
Question:
Did you polish the wootz after the last acid etching?, what did you use to do the polishing, and how? What was the dilution ratio of the Ferric Chloride? What oil, preservative did you use on the finished blade?
Now aren't you sorry for asking for more questions? :)
And one last question, Did you pay your wife for her help in the etching of the Kris? :D
WELCOME TO THE FORUM
Gene

Gene,

Now you're asking for my trade secrets. Okay, just don't tell the competition.

I finished the blade to a "worn out" 600 grit, using 3M automotive paper and water. I used the standard Archer Etchant brand ferric chloride from Radio Shack, but cut it with 5 parts water. That's far more diluted than I usually do for damascus, but the idea is to color rather than eat away metal from the surface and this ratio gives you more control. Al told me to wipe it on then rinse it off, but I just wasn't fast enough on the first two etchings. I had to go back and refinish the blade. The third etching was wipe with the etchant and rinse in about 3 seconds. It was messy, but grass has started to grow back over our work area! After that last etch and rinse I hosed the entire blade with WD-40 to displace the water. It sat with the WD-40 for a couple of days, with me adding more a few times. This let the etch "cure" a bit, then I cleaned the oil off and waxed it. I've found that certain waxes are great for rust prevention, at least in most places (and with collectors who really know how to take care of carbon steel). The sword was exhibited at the Knifemakers Guild show then delivered to its owner in Hawaii with a wax coating. I did no further polishing of the steel after the etch. The picture of the entire sword makes the blade look blacker than it really is. What you see of the blade in the handle close up is more accurate. It is a darker gray with the white crystals showing.

Did I pay my wife? Gene, I pay my wife, who works for me and is my accountant, every penny I make. She in turn gives me an allowance.

By the way, Al Pendray is not the only man making wootz these days. This past weekend at the Collectors Show, a knife show in Napa California, I got to see two blades of modern wootz from Rick Furrer. Pretty cool stuff!

Thanks for the compliments, folks. I appreciate them.

David

Quote by David:
"By the way, Al Pendray is not the only man making wootz these days. This past weekend at the Collectors Show, a knife show in Napa California, I got to see two blades of modern wootz from Rick Furrer. Pretty cool stuff!"
David, you say Rick Furrer is also making wootz? I was under the impression that Al Pendray had a US Paten on the wootz process. If so then Rick must have another way of making his wootz, all very interesting I say.

I can see now why you work for your wife considering the way she can shoot her pistol! :eek:

Thanks for the information on the polishing of the wootz Kris, now lets see, I have a hose and water so I am now all set to go into competition with you! :D
Gene

PATENTS
 

Gene,

I'm not aware of any patents Al might have on wootz. Others have made it besides Al and Rick. I believe Larry Harley claims to have made wootz, although I have not seen any. Rick does make a small ceramic crucible into which he adds iron and his "secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices". He showed me a small blade, about 6" long, just over an inch wide, and almost 5/32 thick that he has made to replicate (to some extent anyway) an antique middle eastern knife. His color and patterning were a bit subtle, but remember I'm more used to pattern welded damascus with a good deal of contrast. Rick also had heat treated this blade and it showed a hamon. I found that odd, but did not have the time to get more details on it. Either this one or another had some interesting patterning, a variation of a ladder I believe. I found the wootz interesting enought that I'm itching to make something with it.

Yes, my wife is quite a shot. She may not be the Texas NRA Bullseye champ, but still I wouldn't want to be on the other end of her sights.

Competition? Go for it!

David

OTHER MODERN WOOTZ
 

Gene and Others,

In this discussion on wootz I mentioned Ric Furrer's wootz. At this link

http://www.collectors-show.com/artistgall.html

you can see a couple of pictures of his steel. This is a gallery of makers who attended the Collectors Show, the knife show last weekend in Napa, California. Ric's pics are about half way down. You can click the thumbnails to enlarge the pictures. The knife in the picture just above Ric himself was at the show. Nice piece.

David

Mare Rosu,

You might be interested in this discussion, it is long but well worth the time. There are photo's of Ric's wootz posted.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...5&pagenumber=1

Jeff

THANKS
 

Double Edge;
Thanks for the link. Ric wootz sure looks good to me, it has the same pattern as the wootz I have (Pendray & Oriental Arms ) woots blades.


Jeff D.
Now that is one long posting! thank you :)
I should answer those folks as I have one of those pictured ingots of wootz from Oriental Arms. Have a bar from them also.
Now the BIG question/comment is that I had a very large bar of wootz from the Alwar Armory in India with inscriptions on the ingot, I had Al Pendray make a Bowie our of half of it which is a companion of one of Al's own wootz Bowie he also made for me (check the Mug posting and take a look)
I had no problem in having it heated and beated by Al, into a Bowie.
From the information I have is that the Indian Government has stopped exportation of such ingots. Mine came from Europe via Oriental Arms.
I plan to keep the two remaining wootz ingots as they are and not make a blade from them.
Thanks again guys :)