New Maguindanao Kris Form
 

Greetings folks!

I just picked up this Maguindanao kris on eBay. The seller says it came from a WWII vet stationed in the Philippines. Unfortunately that is all he will say and the vet died.

In any case this kris has a silver dot near the tip on both sides. The blade is laminated, but what is amazing is what I found:

1. the ganga is solid silver

2. the front under the ganga is made of inserted silver with a copper tongue

3. the hilt weighs about a pound by itself

4. the hilt is made of solid cast/chased orange swassa (9k), cast/chased/filigree yellow gold (10k+), and silver

The Maguindanao label is based in part on the blade, in part on the scabbard (which I will have to make a new one since this one is in pieces and missing some pieces). However this unique hilt has never been documented or seen as far as I know, except for something similar in the hands of none other than Datu Piang.

Enjoy.

Here is the picture of Datu Piang with his similar kris in his hand on the right side of the picture.

I reposted the hilt of my kris for comparison.

WOW!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: That's about all I can say right now. By the way, you owe me a new keyboard, drooled so badly on my other one it shorted out.

Robert

Absolutely magnificent Battara! Saw it on Ebay and was afraid to take the plunge, but glad you did!

Looks like you have reset the hilt properly...it wasn't set correctly in the Ebay pics.

Oh my what a little polish and clean-up will do!!...it's an absolute treasure!

Karma, baby, karma!!!

So you're the one with the deep pockets.
After all the polishing and etching, you underpaid considering the outcome.
Congrats on catching a nice sword.
It amazes me how you already have it and got it all spiffied up in such a short time.

Is the pommel wood or ivory under the silver?

Inside the hilt there is a small and narrow wood core. The rest is heavy swassa and gold. Solid - no plating as far as I can tell. Thus no ivory. As I said earlier there are remnants of small casting bubbles in the thick heavy swassa.

Fantastic! Thanks for posting. :eek:

Oh I forgot, here is a picture of how I get it before I did clean up and restoration. This picture also shows the original scabbard, which I shall replicate because this original scabbard is crumbling, splitting apart, and splintering. The scabbard bands are white metal (after polishing and testing).

Yes I was freaked when I saw it and saw the potential based on the patinas on the metals. I first thought it was cast silver, but was happily surprised when I polished it and tested it, discovering it to be pure cast swassa gold. :eek:

Also when I was polishing the blade, I noticed that the ganga was not a different steel but an altogether different metalthan the rest of the blade. So I tested that and it came out to be solid silver - looking like it is as high as sterling silver (92.5% pure silver). :eek:

I am very happy..... :D

if there are any other examples like this or like what is in Datu Piang's hands, please post here for our research and learning. Mine and his are the only examples of this type that I am aware.

Jose,

What's going on with the blade just beneath ganja???...it looks like it wants to be a twist core. Does that pattern end abruptly?

Wow, i was watching this as well, but didn't imagine those metals were involved. Great catch José. Congrats! :)

Yowza!!!! Now that's a score! Truly a rare piece if I may say so. Never saw a silver gangya before, and prolly won't see one again. And the handle; wow. Just wow. Echoing Charles' comment: is the blade twistcore? It looks it. Now regarding the scabbard... I realize it doesn't jive with the kris' s new look, but does it have to be discarded? I can see if it weren't original to the blade, but that poor thing has as much history as the kris itself :shrug:
Talk about blast from the past: Moose n where the heck have you been??? Nice to see ya back, my friend

I couldn't be happier for you Jose. Congrats!
Steve

Regarding the pattern weld - no it does not end abruptly but it does not continue down the blade either. Kind of fizzles out really.

On the subject of the scabbard - I'm keeping the original scabbard! I just can't keep the kris in the scabbard without disintegrating the scabbard. I am keeping them separate, making a new one in the same fashion as the old one and wrapping the old one up for safe keeping and preservation.




By the way, I forgot what the talismanic meaning is behind the silver dot in the blade tip. Any ideas?

a good shot, well done...................jimmy

The resemblance between that and Datu Piang's kris is so uncanny. With all the bling associated with it, it might just be his, or a part of his personal collection...

Hello Jose,

you are going to replace your stolen weapons with even better pieces! I have seen by the auction photos that it is a beauty but that it is so nice......

Maybe you should built up a scabbard like on the picture from Datu Piang, when not the same kris it will be the same manufacturer. :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

Oh I would love it if it were. That is why I was so disappointed when the seller told me that his contract with the family is not to divulge the identity of the previous owner. :(

When I first stumbled unto this kris, I remembered this picture of Datu Piang with his kris that has puzzled me for years. I have tried in vain to research his type of kris. No documentation, no example found, not even a type mentioned in Cato or anyone else.

So when I saw this, I knew that this was unique and perhaps the only other example known in the world (so far). I had to have it and restore it/clean it up and research it.

I thought about that, but decided that the new scabbard should be in keeping with the original spirit of the piece, as close to the old scabbard as possible.

Wow!!!

Great that you won it, Jose, and that it has so many hidden bonuses.
It was on my watch list, too but I was out and forgot to set my sniper.
I would never had suspected that the hilt was solid swassa…

Michael

Datu Piang's kris is unique, but i don't think it's a different type. the pommel is the smaller abbreviated type sarimanok minus the tail and neck. what makes it looks so different is the way the wing-like protrusion is expressed by the craftsman; chased, rather than one solid piece. also the excellent ukkil presentation just above the ferrule. which makes me think it was done by the same craftsman who did Piang's kris on the photo.
really glad that you got it, tho, Jose. now that you posted the picture, it really answered a lot of questions on what was going on with the kris old man Amai Mingka (Piang) was holding. to compare those two is just amazing!!!

WOW!! AND THE MAGICIAN PULLS ANOTHER RARE TREASURE OUT OF HIS HAT. :D ITS GREAT WHEN KNOWLEGE, PERSERVERENCE, MONEY AND EXCEPTIONAL LUCK ALL COME TOGETHER FOR SUCH A GREAT FIND. IT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A NICER GUY. CONGRADULATIONS. :cool:

Battara, I have a kris with similar characteristics as above. I wonder how common they were. Ibeam had posted a photo of his Kris with a copper(?) ganya. I wonder what purpose a non ferrous metal ganga serves; talismanic or just purely decorative?

Thank you so much folks. Your support after what happened to me this summer moves me. I thank you all.

Kino, that is a good question. I too think it is talismanic, but the meaning escapes me.

Spunger, I agree that the same craftsman who did this kris did Datu Piang's too. Another reason I am excited about this piece and the connection to Piang.

Just to be clear, the gold band that you circled is in fact both solid, chased, and filigreed - all the above. Also the section circled is also made of 2 parts, both solid. The large section of yellow gold is cast and chased, welded to the swassa. The other part is a band of yellow gold that is cast, chased, and filigreed, not welded but held in place with by wrapped silver wire.

Now as far as the sarimanok is concerned, I will study this further.

ok, lemme go slow on this one...

as far as the handle, the shape is similar to this one:

...on the picture posted above, notice how the tail part and the front part are blunt. here's the same picture, encircled this time. and also a picture of your Piang's kris, encircled at the same spots. i also added another kris that has similar designed pommel.

now moving on to the part i mentioned yesterday. clearly we're talking two different things. first of all you mentioned that you have not seen this type of kris before, hence me posting those pictures just above this post to show a handle that is similar type. now granted the example for comparison i've given is not gold, filigreed, chased, solid etc. but rather it's made out of ivory, but the point is, the overall design is similar: blunt front and blunt back

now, going back to the part i encircled yesterday...
i can clearly see how your piece is made out of, jose. it's excellently ornated, but that's not what i'm saying. what i've done on the pictures provided is draw a line around the part i'm trying to describe. notice on both ivory pieces, the wing-like appendage is solid, not stylized. on your piece it's rather stylized, in ukkil fashion i might add, to the point they're feather like.

your piece solved the mystery of Datu Piang's kris, my friend. i've always wondered what's up with all those lines and wiggles. now we know it's a very blinged out pommel!!!

Spunjer,

Interesting comments all around. I think normally we look at blunted ivory pommels as potentially damaged. Perhaps we should be more careful in our examination.

Had I seen the one with a silver sleeve with no further explanation, I would instantly have assumed the hilt was more Malay than from the Philippines. That silver sleeve looks Malay through and though to me. Of course the blade would have to have something to do with it and it appears to have a Moro style cloth tassel. Is the okir work there exclusively Moro?

Wow what a nice kris you have found Jose. Congrats with this beauty!
I don't know what the silver dot in the blade tip means, and I'm also curious if somebody find something out about it in the future.

I have a mandau with one dot in the middle which is all through the blade, and four dots around the central dot like a square, inlaid in only one side of the blade and not going all through the blade.
Though dots in mandaublades are not uncommon, it's strange to have them on a mandaublade situated like these.
As the dayaks has other beliefs as the moro's, I don't think the solution of the meaning of such dot will be applicable for both swords.
But I thought it would be a nice side addition to show the images here...

Maurice

charles, the kris in question is moro. here's a link to a full body shot:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...miniature+kris

No doubt Spunjer, it's definitely Moro. Once I saw the whole thing I remember we have looked at that one together.

Sorry to have temporarily strayed from the initial thread topic.

Thanks Spunger, now I understand to what you are referring.

Also like you I finally understand the decor on Datu Piang's kris.

On the sarimanok, I finally see how you are seeing it last night.





Maurice, although they are 2 different sets of cultures, they are cousins and may share similar symbolic traits.

Not as ornate as yours but here's another style.

and another.

Thanks! Ron,
Been doing different things but have swung by once in awhile. I'm training in FMA's again so picking out a couple of my swords to do some restoration on. Figured I'd need to be picking Jose's brain here soon. ;)
Maybe get a couple of old questions answered by the group.
Nice to be back ...

On the right is my diminutive kakatua style pommel made of ivory. Blunt but not quite as blunt as Spunger's.

Welcome back Moose.

Your piece on the right maybe a little different - it seems to me more in line with earlier forms, not so much this type on discussion. However it would help to see the rest of the blade as well.

Just for clarification: yes I agree that the general form is not unknown. However what I have not seen before and what I am catagorizing as new is the version that is in Datu Piang's hand and the nearly identical version now in my possession.

That being said, I am glad Cual that you brought up the picture of the ivory one that seems to be in the same family - I forgot where it was. :o

All of these 3-4 examples of this type of pommel style show us that there is more that Cato did not mention in his book, although his is a beginning grammer, so to speak.

And Moose, if you want to pick my brain (and not my nose) you can message me here or at battara@hotmail.com :D

no, thank YOU, for posting this wonderful kris jose. it really help us solved the mystery of Datu Piang's kris. it's just too cool that you got the twin piece. can't wait to see this in real life, bro! not to mention how this particular piece really strengthened the sarimanok connection

What can I say other than I am speechless? What a great find, and I'm so glad it went to someone who posts here, as I wouldn't have learned about the abbreviated/blunt sarimanok pommel being a consistently executed form.

I have one with a similar form pommel (albeit wood) as well, and once i find pictures I'll post them on the thread to contribute.

Again, great find, Jose. I wish I'd bid more on it when it was up, but I'm glad it went to you.

EDIT: What would the chances be that this actually is Datu Piang's Kris? I'm thinking that since he died prior to WWII, he could have passed it on to a relative who may have had to replace the scabbard at some point. Are there any other shots of Piang and his Kris we can use for reference to see just how similar the hilts are?

you know, i've been comparing jose's kris and Piang's kris, and the only difference i could find is that final ring closest to the pommel. on piang's picture, i noticed that the rings are spaced evenly, with the final ring placed just below the reversed number 7 looking ukkil. also, it seems like there's a cloth of some sort between the top ring and the ring immediately below it. meanwhile, Jose's kris has the top ring seated next to second ring...
other than that, the ukkils are eerily similar. heck, everything else is similar. i mean, for those that collects moro krises, has anyone ever seen two krises that are THIS similar???

which begs another question: does the ring closest to the pommel somewhat loose, or by any chance, moveable???

Well the ring/band below the pommel is held there by twisted silver wire at the front. It is not actually a ring. I agree that there are some small differences in the 2, but again minor.

I too wonder if this could have been owned by Piang.......:shrug:


Here are 2 other pictures of another metal pommel kris worn by Datu Piang - one is a close up of the other: