MONSTER MUSKET/JEZAIL FOR IDENTIFICATION
 

THIS ONE IS A BEAST WEIGHS 7 KGS,THE MUZZLE IS LIKE A CANNON HUGE 3CMS.WOODWORK WITH BRASS INLAYS AND TURKISH CRESENT MOON SYMBOLS.

Waoww beautiful
I think this one has a Moghul barrel, isn't it?
Is it what they call a wall gun?
Kubur

Very nice. I assume it is yours? I would think Sindi in origin, and used as a "wall gun".
Stu

THANKS KUBUR ,WELL HAVE NEVER HELD A GUN SO HEAVY ,ACTUALLY UNCOMFORTABLE TO CARRY SO I GUESS ITS USED TO FIRE FROM A FORT AND WITH A CANNON KIND OF BARREL IT WAS USED FOR LONG DISTANCES .

THANKS STU,YES THE STYLE OF THE BUTT IS IN THE SIND STYLE BUT IT HAS THE TURKISH CRESENT MOON??,I ASSUME ITS A FORT GUN AND WAS FIRED FROM A FIXED AREA,CHEERS

ANOTHER PICTURE OF A SINDHI GUN

Looks good at a distance!

But clearly all of the brass work & wood work is brand new....

Look at all those fresh cut sharp fresh cut brass & timber edges, unlike the worn old barrel & lock... :shrug:

Was it sold as original? or antique? Hope it was very cheap?

The stock inlay shows the flag of Pakistan! ;) Ottoman I think not.....As its only just been made.

spiral

Hi spiral such guns were used by baluchi tribes in Baluchistan ,Pakistan ,so the Pakistani connection,about it being made yesterday ,quiet possible ....thanks

Salaams Bandook, I think what you have consists possibly an old barrel...The rest looks added...especially in the brass plate region and likely the entire woodwork. Difficult to say on the lock...trigger etc but the gun looks "played with"..Since the decoration is late on a replaced butt it throws the idea of it being Turkish.. Nice Barrel though...Did you strip the lock/trigger off and look under there....
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

"Wa-Alaikum-Salaam" Ibrahiim
I was waiting for your comments and am glad to hear from you,i bought this at auction and was told that the gun belonged to an old collector ,but no history how this came into his collection. am sure the barrel and locks are old,and woodwork and brass decorations added at some stage,i will check the insides soon.the huge cannon like bore attracted me
Sukhran
Rajesh

Don't worry about the comments above
It's normal to have an old barrel and a more recent stock.
These guns were used until the beginning of the 20th c.
Please, send us more shots of the barrel. Thanks!
Kubur

Translates to { I presume. If I may be so presumptuous ;) } , it normal in some parts of the modern commercial market for these to be old barrels & locks to be installed in brand new woodwork & brass work to relieve collectors of there hard earned {or inherited...} money.

Unless sold as modern rebuild using old barrel & lock...{ the wood worm & damp has eaten the stock while it was left rotting in a palace or armoury cellar for 150 years...}

Namaste Ibrahim! ! Its interesting you ay these wall guns were used in the early 20th century? What references are there for the 20th century use?

spiral

I would be very cautious on saying that the brass represented Pakistan. these are common symbals that that have been used for a while. bullets are expensive why would you not reuse older parts. In new mexico,usa we commonly use farm and construction equipment that is from the 1940-1970,s. People that do not have money use and repurpose things all the time. This does not look like souq work to me. carving a stock is work if done correctly. If the brass has sharp edges or the stock has polyurethane I would be a lot more inclined to belive it was more modernly refurbished

THANKS KUBUR WILL GET MORE PHOTOS OF THE BARREL SOON,ITS GOOD TO GET YOUR FEEDBACK
THANKS WARD YOU HAVE A VALID POINT,SUCH WEAPONS ARE STILL IN USE IN REMOTE AREAS,WE STILL USE GUNPOWDER AND BALLBEARINGS,NAILS ETC IN MANY PARTS OF INDIA AS BULLETS /CARTRIDGES ARE EXPENSIVE,THEY GET RELOADED AND REUSED.

Hi my friend,
As I said nice long gun from the end of the 19th, maybe from the very beginning of the 20th. The lock should be English or Persian/English...
I'm still intrigued by the barrel. It really looks like an Indian barrel from the end of the 18th c. Note also that the first Ottoman tufeks have the same "dragon mouth", but they are much older, 16-17th c.
Kubur

Pakistan flag symbol was said a little tongue in cheek Ward, ;)

But seemed a lot more likely than the original Turkish attribution?

As for sharp edges on the brass I agree. I think you could nearly shave with that brass fitting?

As for stock I agree it well carved, but that doesn't stop it being recent, & if some are so badly done its even covered with polyurethane then that's just even lower quality work, surely?

The mouth of the barrel seems to be in the form of a tiger's head which often appears on firearms associated with Tipu Sahib (orTipu Sultan), the Tigerof Mysore. I"m not saying this is one of those guns but it might indicate an origin for the barrel in Mysore or an area in South India aware of that tradition.
Regards
Richard

HI RICHARD THATS CORRECT ,THE MOUTH HAS THAT KIND OF SHAPE AND FORM,SO WILL BE JUST A GUESS,THANKS FOR YOUR OBSERVATION

Greetings Kubur,AM POSTING SOME MORE PICTURES OF THIS MONSTER,REGARDS

Yes Richard is right, it's a tiger head, common in India, not only in Mysore.
They always choose powerful animals for the muzzle. The dragon was the most common as he is connected to alchemy and fire. Look at the cannons even in Europe they have frequently this dragon/monster head. Now I have the "feeling" that your barrel is not so old, maybe end of 18th c.

THANKS KUBUR,IF YOU SEE THIS GUN YOU WILL KNOW,AM SURE LOCKS AND BARREL REAL OLD,THEN DONE UP SOME STAGE,PLEASE OBSERVE LOCK HAS THE NUMBER 2 WITH SOME FADED INSIGNA ON IT,CHEERS

The barrels a lovely old thing.


Seeing the stamp on the lock, it looks also later copy work.{Not as recent as timber or brass though...}

I guess they had a nice old barrel so built everything else around it, to get a few western dollars...

Hi Bandook.
WOW!!! That's a monster!! LOL!!! Where on Earth did you find it??? Yes, designed to look like a Sind wall gun of some sort. LOL It's great.
At first, I thought of the possibility this might be a Victorian Era copy, which were assembled from a combination of old and new parts. And often, the barrels were highly exaggerated just for effect. But, as mentioned above, the stock and brass work look to new for even a Victorian copy.
A couple of tests if you would: 1) Run a dowel, rod, or piece of wire down the barrel and see if it goes all the way to the end of the breech? 2) Is there a vent hole at the breech of the barrel that meets the pan?
The lock looks original. The hammer is shaped like the trade locks of the early 19th Century. The barrel: I have no idea?? But it is sure cool looking. It looks like a 20th Century build of some kind. Sure is decorative looking. If I owned the barrel I might have a hard time not building something around it. LOL
But let me know what you find with the barrel. And thanks for Posting!!!!
Rick.

THANKS RICK WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON THIS,I BOUGHT IT AT AUCTION AND THIS LOT CAME FROM AN OLD MANS DECEASED ESTATE LOT,ALSO GOT A MOROCCON MUSKET FROM HIS COLLECTION WHICH I WILL BE POSTING SOON,CHEERS

Great!1 Yes, please post both. Thanks, Rick.

HI RICK I HAVE PUT THE MOROCCON MUSKET ON ETHNIC FORUM FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION,CHEERS

Salaams all ...
The lock is off a Brown Bess...

see http://www.ima-usa.com/original-brit...rked-lock.html

I would suggest that the marks on the lock plate are the remnants of the Nepali mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

SUKHRAN IBHRAHIIM,
GOOD OBSERVATION,SO ITS GOOD TO KNOW THAT NOW THE BARREL AS
WELL AS LOCK ARE ORIGINAL,CHEERS FOR THAT MAKES THIS BEAST A BIT INTERESTING FIND.

KIND ATTENTION-KUBUR
 

KUBUR HAVE COPIED YOUR PICTURE,PLEASE OBSERVE THE GUY ON RIGHT HAND SIDE ,HE HAS QUIET A SIMILAR JEZAIL WITH THE THICK HUGE BARREL??WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I think the dodgy crown stamp over a 2 does not resemble the Nepali Brown bess lock in any way shape or form. {Looking on 22 inch monitor at time 400% enlagment.}

Old Afganistan NWF Brown bess lock re. used seems more likely...

Gentlemen,

The easiest way to determine the age of the stock is to loosed the screws
that hold the lock, remove it and consider the aperture which holds it. Generally speaking, if the wood is very fresh, shows recent chisel and gouge marks and is unstained (there will be powder, grease and other stains as well as some degree of rubbing if it has seen much use) it probably is not very old. Neither the stock nor the brass mounts show much wear, and as everyone agrees, the barrel is clearly older.

Age is, however, relative. The question is, was this weapon made for use, or for tourist consumption. Flint and percussion weapons were used in a variety of locales well into the 20th century, in fact the Afghans used them against the Soviets when necessary as recently as a quarter-century ago.

Salaams Bandook ~ This is indeed a stunning piece of artwork and I note even the TEE shaped gun tool (Eslabone) to the immediate right of the red ink circle...I was reading again the article about the British retreat from the Orchard where the entire organisation was badly mauled mainly by Afghan long guns which could outfire range wise the Brown Besses of the British.

The lock on your Gun is most certainly one of the Brown Bess locks and in reading about the history of that weapon I recall that many Besses went to India and a lot became so badly rotted away that the only thing to do was to strip a lot down for spares. The problem with your Gun is deciding when this may have been done as the woodwork looks good but new...and it is not beyond many workshops to rejig the trigger and lock using spares these days...The Afghan workshop can reproduce an almost entirely home made Martini Henry including the barrel and they have loads of spare parts from British Weapons procured from the British. In this regard I agree with the previous post by Mr Oliver Pinchot. In fact one workshop not 100 yards from here is continually making 303 or Martini or other old rifle Stocks and Butts... These chaps are Indian and Pakistani and they can just as easily make such curved Butts ..It is what they have done since they were children and Up The Khyber they are expert at it ...


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks oliver for the information,cheers

CHEERS IBRAHIIM,CHEERS

Salaams Ibrahiim, The TEE shaped tool you refer to is a flint knapping hammer, used for shaping flints to fit the jaws on the cock.
Stu

THANKS STU FOR THE VALUABLE INFORMATION ,CHEERS
I BOUGHT THIS GUN FOR ITS UNIQUE SHAPE,DIMENSIONS AND WEIGHT,ITS VERY UNIQUE IN ITS OWN WAY
HAPPY FOR ALL THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE COMMENTS ,IT ADDS TO MY KNOWLDGE
REGARDS RAJESH

TEE SHAPED COMBINATION TOOL...
 

Salaams Khanjar1, Yes indeed ...This handy tool also appears in Oman and is the same tee shape comprising hammer head spike and screwdriver. The one at reference below has a pricker device as well.

It derives from the Spanish/Portuguese item described by Thomas del Mar at an old auction 2 years ago on~

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogu...3/page005.html as

Quote"A SPANISH COMBINATION TOOL (ESLABÓN) SIGNED CLEMENE D YSLA EN ESPINOSA, 18TH CENTURYwith moulded shank, pierced at the base, with screw driver terminal (one small chip), the head signed and with knapping and hammer terminals, complete with its pricker (a contemporary repair)
9.3cm; 3 5/8in high

For a discussion of Spanish firearms accessories see J. Lavin 1965, pp. 212-213." Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams spiral, I aim off somewhat from the mid 19th C use of such weapons and arrived at a slightly later date...If I am more precise it may be seen as used up to the mid 19th though I cannot be absolutely certain...the following may be a closer spot date for its latest use...though no doubt some were used later and perhaps in the provinces by locals etc...That is why I give the mid 19C a little air...and arrived at what I consider as a reasonable early 20th C final resting place ..

Quote"Summary:
Indian matchlock musket or Toradar.

One of a collection of weapons seized from mutineers during the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), and subsequently donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India.
Description:
Cal. .625 in., smooth bore barrel 1054 mm long, ornamental grooves.

Pan on right hand side, V notch rear sight.

Fully stocked, secured to barrel by 5 bands, ramrod missing, iron trigger & 2 sling swivels. Straight stock with ornamental brass mounts, serpentine protrudes from piece of shaped bone attached to top of stock.
Statement Of Significance:
This is one of 287 weapons and associated items from the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India. The weapons had been seized from the Indian mutineers by British troops during the course of the mutiny.

The donation was in response to a suggestion by Redmond Barry, Chairman of Trustees, that a letter be sent to Sir Henry Barkly, Governor of Victoria, requesting him to write to the Governor-General of India. The letter to Barkly, dated 9 May 1859, noted that 'such objects placed in the Museum attached to the Library would afford interesting illustration of oriental national customs and peculiarities.'

The weapons were also war booty, signifying the relief of Victorians that their fellow colonists in India were once more safe. Many Victorian colonists (including Barry) had relatives in the British army and administration in India, had anxiously followed the bulletins of the Indian Mutiny in the newspapers, and raised funds locally to aid the cause. Some of the weapons were displayed in the main stairwell of the Library, alongside Australian Aboriginal weapons. Here they became symbols of the defeat of local peoples as the British Empire expanded around the globe.

The collection was subsequently transferred to the National Gallery of Victoria, and thence in parts to the Industrial & Technological Museum during the early decades of the twentieth century. At each stage in its history, the collection has been gradually reduced in size through items being presented or disposed of.
Acquisition Information:
Donation & Subsequent Transfer from National Gallery of Victoria (NGV), 1860
Discipline: Technology
Dimensions: 155.5 cm (Length)"Unquote.

It may be worth considering that in the 2nd Afghan war 1878 ...1880 the Afghan style of Torador was used against the British as illustrated on http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...cc=1966-10-9-1

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Greetings Ibahiim!.

Thank you.... I did wonder!

Spiral

20th c use of flintlock documented.....
 

This however confirms that such old guns are still used to this day. A You Tube link from one of Michael Palins travel docos from the BBC. Not only a modern day use of a flintlock, but also using home made powder. Rather him than me I think!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua131xJiMKU