Unusual nimcha blade: need help
 

Here is a run-of-the-mill Moroccan Nimcha.
One unusual thing about it is its blade.
As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.
This one has straight blade with large false edge. Also, locally-made blades have 3 narrow fullers. This one has 7.
The fullering and the false edge ( and, to a much less degree, straight construction) are very different from the usual local pattern. No markings to claim European origin.

Is this a more sophisticated local production?
Or, trade European blade with no markings?

Ariel,
The number of fullers seem to be very big, but what about the ricasso?
As you know I do know very little about these swords.
Jens

How about a close up of the blade far to the right, where the fullers converge.

Hi Ariel
I've seen many straight blades on nimchas, it's not uncommon,
most of the time old imported blades
But I can't say nothing about this blade.
Kubur

Here is the distal part of the blade with converging fullers.
I checked all my Arabian swords, including 2 Nimchas from Morocco: none of them have a ricasso, including trade European blades.

Ariel, glad you acquired this sword and thank you for sharing it here for discussion. From what I remember from the auction pictures you have also done an excellent job cleaning it. I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering.

Teodor

That's what i was daring to guess ... on an uneducated basis, though.

Me too, Indian is reasonnable.
Now the question is do you think that the blade was added by a collector recently or in Morocco in the 18th 19th c.?
I'm very suspicious about an Indian blade on a Moroccan nimcha...

Guys,
Ricasso serves as a differentiating sign only between Indian and Persian Shamshir blades. Many European blades had ricasso and I wonder whether Indians not borrowed the idea of a ricasso from Europe.
I will have to look at my Indian straight- bladed ones.
Thanks to Jens for his gentle hint.
Fernando, did the converging fullers help you?
TVV, the cleaning job has just begun:-) Its wooden handle is dirty, dry and cracked, and has a lot of nasty thin splinters and worm holes. I will have to polish it, otherwise I would not be able to hold it without thick gloves. Then the natural wood color will disappear. Would staining it ( say, dark mahogany) be appropriate? Also, would filling the holes with stainable filler be OK?

Kubur,
No worry here about recent manipulations. It is all as original, as the moment it was created.

But I share your doubt about the Indian origin of the blade. I tend to think it is one of the multiple trade European ones and that is exactly why I posted it here.

As i said, just an un-educated guess. One based on sight of some Indian fullering fashion, as seen, for one, in page 105 of Jorge Caravana collection catalogue (Rites of Power), which i assume you have a copy. But probably this is the wrong issue.


-

Yes, I do. I even have an identical one:-)
But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering.
We are talking about later swords, don’t we?

Any similar sword examples from 18-9 century?

I am not trying to be stubborn, just want to get to the bottom of it if possible.
I asked an acquaintance of mine who is very good in European swords, but he couldn’t place it.

Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum?

It may be copied, yes.

Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade .

They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?

I couldnt really say ...

they are all made by the same tool a fullering plane.
just on the indian one looks like its be polished to a more rounded surface once fullered.

Oh i see; thank you for that :cool:.

Indian and especially Arabian are of a uniform width. Mine are more complex: wide-narrow etc. That , together with a well formed false edge, was the feature to tilt me toward a European source. Ricasso is a well-known feature of Indian blades, but I can’t recall it on locally made N. African ones.

As I suspected, a little but perplexing mystery:-)

Ariel,
I think I see 5 fullers on one side of your sword and 7 on
the other side, is that correct?
Are the fullers on your sword as even as the ones shown on thinredlines sword? It looks as if the fullers are not as straight.
Could the blade have been made of Indian ingots?
Indian ingots were sold to Arabia where blades were made, and exported to India.
Could the blade have been made somewhere in Arabia, 'copying' an European blade, ment for the Indian market - but sold to Morocco?

No, 7 on each side. All very straight and in the same order.
As to the "travel" from an ingot to the final place of sale, - anything is possible.

Just all my Indian and especially Arabian blades have fullers that are not as straight and even as this one.

I told you, guys, it is confusing.....

In Robert Elgood's Jodhpur booke, vol. I, pp. 218-219, he shows an almost straight Indian blade (kirich/kirach) with four fullers.
Maybe your blade is Indian.

Yes.
And p.200: even with a false edge.
But how on Earth did it get to North Africa?

I dont know, but I see one possibility. When the caravans from north Africa aand Arabia were returning from India, they needed to bring back items for trade, so maybe the blade was part of such items.

Ariel, a small treat for you, another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade

I hear you, guys.
But then p.198 in Elgood vol.1: virtually identical one unhesitantly attributed to Europe.

Can we reliably distinguish genuine European multifullered trade blades from their Indian copies?
Other than in cases of obvious European inscriptions?

Must certainly not from pictures, and even if you have the blade in the hand, I doubt that you can be certain, as some of the Indian smiths were very good when it came to copying blades.

Well, let me add that the sword that I posted has a Caucasian blade with an inscription of Tippu Sultan from Mysore.
What a complicated story...

:)

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

http://www.tessier-sarrou.com/html/f...rdre=&aff=1&r=

Its good enough to me!

:)

North African style yes but, the blade travelling from the Caucasus to Mysore; where would have the hilt been made ? Has this sword ever seen Africa ? ;) :confused:.

My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck.

Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

I started to add some unprintable vocabulary, but caught myself in time:-)

Well it doesn't look like a fake at all... and why???

Plus the funny thing is that your sword is just supporting the provenance of the sword that I posted...

But if I follow your opinion then we come back to my first post, your sword might be a fake with a nimcha hilt and an Indian blade, both are easy to find for collectors...

I think you have to chose between: all fakes or both examples supporting each other...


:shrug:

I did not interpret Ariel's post to suggest the ivory hilted sword is not a genuine antique. I cannot speak for him, but it sounded like he doubted the Caucasus attribution. Personally, to me an Indian blade sounds more plausible - we know the Indians could produce excellent quality blades that looked indistinguishable from European blades, and if the sword was indeed collected in Mysore, that would seem a lot more plausible.
:shrug:

Theodor,

You hit the nail on the head: of course neither of the 2 nimchas is a “fake”. The blade on the French one is not Caucasian, that is as much as one can figure out from a single pic. And, BTW, doesn’t its handle look South Arabian rather than Moroccan?
The question is exactly as you say: is the blade a genuine European trade one or an outstanding Indian copy of it?
Somehow, I have never asked this question and never even thought about it.
Will be glad to get some hints.

Ariel,

Good question on the hilt. Assuming the blade is Indian and the whole sword collected in Mysore, it would be tempting to think it could be from Southern Arabia. However, I am afraid it is Algerian. Compare to pictures of a sword in the Rijksmuseum captured by the Dutch captain Michiel de Ruyter in the second half of the 17th century in terms of shape of hilt and guard. There is a whole group of these nimchas with tortoise shell on the hilt and brass guards in museum and private collections. The Bashir Mohammad book mentions that several were collected as trophies by the Spanish in 1732 following the siege of Oran and taken to the Real Armeria, and so this hilt is clearly of Maghrebi origin.

I am not sure why the auction house described the blade as made in the Caucasus. However, given that this type of nimcha hilt was in fashion during the century preceding Tipu's rule, it is actually possible for one to have traveled all the way to Mysore.

Teodor

Theodor,
My reference to South Arabia was based on Robert Hales’ book.
He shows a whole bunch of Omani nimchas with nearly identical IVORY handles, likely made in Zanzibar, Pemba etc. ( pp. 237-239).

I think that a more realistic scenario for the French sword would be just an Indian trade blade mounted in Oman on a locally-made handle. At least we know that Omanis traded with India extensively and even owned a part of Baluchistan. A picture of the cartouche shows what seems to look like Indian crystalline Wootz.

The circuitous route “ Caucasus- Mysore-Morocco” is far too complex for the Occam’s rule. Moreover, the Caucasus point is plainly wrong, and the Mysore one is based on just a misspelled name Tipy( sic!).

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

Of course Teodor you're right, plus we have around 1000 posts about this topic...