Help with Identification please
 

Hello all,
I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin.
I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts.
Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated
thanks

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris001.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris003.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris006.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris007.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris016.jpg

Here's an interesting link :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=soldier+keris

search for soldier keris and you find a lot to read about your keris here in the forum.

Rick and Henk have put you on the right path. These are commonly believed to be souvenir keris brought home by Dutch soldiers around the turn of the 19th-20th century from the island of Madura.

Thanks everyone.

That looks like a pretty good, but degraded blade .

The pamor is interesting and bold .

I also have one exactly like your example . :)

I might have a go at trying to clean the blade up following some of the posts here on Keris cleaning (but maybe without the arsenic). When I was in Malaysia I spoke with a Keris maker in Kuala Kangsar who mentioned using a tamarind solution.
So far I have managed to clean up slightly rust speckled blades and strip gun blueing (the gun blueing strip was not intentional, left it on too long).
When I get a free stretch of time I'll take some photos.
If the keris cleaning process by a novice is not advisable please let me know, all advice is appreciated.

Pineapple juice; but I'd think about it a bit before diving in .
The blade may be out of stain; but a real cleaning will remove much of the 'patina' .

Yeah Rick, it might, but sometimes with these older blades you'll find that what happens is that most of the rust comes off and you reach a point where the blade is pretty clean, then it starts to colour up again and if you're not too much of a fanatic, you can get a reasonable stain job straight out of the pineapple juice without using arsenic. I suspect that what might happen is that the residual arsenic is activated by the juice.

Just remember to brush daily with a soft toothbrush under running water.

Would you try to degrease it before a pineapple juice soak, Alan ?

Or no ?

Definitely yes, Rick.

This is a standard part of the process.

I usually do it in the kitchen sink with warm water, dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush, then I rinse off and dry thoroughly before putting into the juice.

No solvents ?
I have a Sumatran/Bugis blade that I cannot get free of oil; no matter what I do to it, including acetone .
I have used everything ; and still it smells of scented oil !!
If it still smells of oil; then it is not degreased; no ?









Sorry to digress ...... :o

No mate.

If the ferric material is porous the oil penetrates down into the body of the blade. You'll never get rid of the smell.

You could wash a blade off with turps, I suppose, acetone tends to dry a bit too quickly for my liking, but all I ever use is dishwash --- when I think its necessary

I've got blades that I've stripped and stained and oiled with kenongo/cendono, and then I come back 12 months later and they still smell of the oil that was on them before I cleaned them up.

I suggest you ignore the smell. Just give it a scrub with dishwash and go ahead with the job.

Iff you realy want to do the job as good as it can get, dont use acetone beter use apolar(non polar) solvents, like hexane, petrolether, toluene and so on. Also you can "cook"or boil the blade in water and let it cool down... afther that lot of dirt wil come out of the pores of the blade. But do reconsider about the state of the blade before you try to do this. Also NaOH (sodium hydroxide) can be used to degrease or break oil or fat like dirt on the blade.

regards Ab

Highly technical Kulbuntet, and highly unnecessary.

I've been doing this now for a very long time, I have never had a failure --- I mean not ever, not even one time --- and all I've ever done is as I've just told it.

I do vary things a bit sometimes, depending on the blade. If its really heavily rusted I use vinegar first until the bulk of the rust is off. This saves money, because vinegar is much cheaper than pineapple juice.Vinegar is a bit quicker than pineapple juice too.

If a blade obviously doesn't have any oil on it, I don't wash it at all.

Cleaning and staining a blade is not rocket science, it takes just a little bit of knowledge and just a little bit of experience to produce a pretty decent job.You don't need to get all technical, things will work out anyway, if you just let them.

Interesting posts.
I have at my disposal (listed in ease of obtainability in NZ):
pineapple syrup (canned pineapple slices in syrup)
malt and white vinegar
cooking tamarind solution
methylated spirits (denatured alcohol)
kerosene
isopropyl alcohol (70% solution)
I feel a potential project coming on. I'll have a look for posts on cleaning and depending on availability of time try and use from the above ingredients to clean up the blade.
Any pointers greatly appreciated.
thanks

Yep, that is just what I did Alan; I was amazed at the persistence of the smell through all that preliminary stuff .

I think David had a go at that blade if I recall . :confused:

My response is interpolated:-

Interesting posts.
I have at my disposal (listed in ease of obtainability in NZ):

pineapple syrup (canned pineapple slices in syrup)
YOU CAN FORGET THIS.
WHAT YOU NEED IS PINEAPPLE JUICE.I'M IN AUSTRALIA AND I USE GOLDEN CIRCLE, WHICH USED TO EXPORT TO NZ.GOLDEN CIRCLE IS NOW OWNED BY HIENZ FOODS A US COMPANY, YOU MIGHT LIKE TO RING THEM AND ASK IF PINEAPPLE JUICE IS AVAILABLE IN NZ

malt and white vinegar
CHEAPEST WHITE VINEGAR IS OK.
IF ITS A BIT TOO ACIDIC, WHICH YOU CAN GAUGE BY THE SPEED WITH WHICH IT REMOVES RUST, YOU CAN ADD A BIT OF WATER TO DILUTE IT


cooking tamarind solution
NEVER USED IT ON KERIS
BUT ITS ACIDIC AND WOULD WORK AS WOULD ANY OTHER MILDLY ACIDIC LIQUID
I HAVE USED PINEAPPLE JUICE FOR YEARS AND I LIKE IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW LONG YOU LEAVE THE BLADE IN THE J8ICE YOU WILL NEVER DAMAGE IT.


methylated spirits (denatured alcohol)
METHO IS NOT A REAL GOOD DEGREASER
YOU SHOULD ALSO BE ABLE TO BUY MINERAL TURPENTINE (TURPS) ITS PRETTY HARD TO PAINT WITH ENAMELS IF DON'T HAVE TURPS.
BUT AS I'VE ALREADY SAID:- ALL YOU REALLY NEED IS DISHWASH, AND YOU CAN GET THAT ANYWHERE


kerosene
FORGET KERO


isopropyl alcohol (70% solution)
NEVER HEARD OF IT


I feel a potential project coming on. I'll have a look for posts on cleaning and depending on availability of time try and use from the above ingredients to clean up the blade.
Any pointers greatly appreciated.
THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN ADDRESSED MANY TIMES IN THIS FORUM
ITS A DEAD SIMPLE JOB AND ONLY NEEDS DEAD SIMPLE MATERIALS AND PROCEDURES.

It came up OK didn't it Rick?

This is a pic of a Bali blade that has been in pineapple juice for about a week. It has been taken out most days and scrubbed with an old toothbrush, the hard bits of rust have been picked off with an old file ground to a point, it has been scrubbed with sink cleaner, steel wool, and a scotchbrite pad.

The pic was taken today after it had been removed from the pineapple juice and just rinsed off with water.

As you can see, the pamor has started to come up, and for some people this would be an adequate finish. I will give it a couple more days of soaking, then I'll hit with lime juice and arsenic, and the end result will be that the ferric material will be a lot darker, however, if you don't like handling arsenic, or cannot obtain it, this finish would be a whole lot better than the red-rust all-over finish it had before I started.

Ignore the blade shape, its distorted because I took it at an angle so the pamor could be seen.

Hi Alan,
There wasn't much contrast to begin with; but yes, it did come up a bit .

Look at the corner for exotic fruit juice in large supermarkets (most likely available in tetrapacks). However, make sure to get pure juice rather than diluted stuff with added sugar, etc. (100% juice from concentrate is ok IME.)

This juice still contains a lot of fruit particles but can be utilized as is for cleaning purposes. Filtering doesn't work - if you let a pack stand for a long time, you can decant maybe 2/3 of the volume as reasonably clear juice. I'm not convinced that this extra effort really helps the arsenic restaining though...

Regards,
Kai

Out shopping today and found the following on special.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...lean/juice.jpg

Looks good .
Got something the right size to soak the blade in ?

A suspension immersion tube has been playing on my mind.
Was thinking of cutting the top straight off one of the packs and suspending the keris (with the handle wrapped in cling wrap/gladwrap, I've been poring over posts) but that might be a waste of pineapple juice. Am going to hunt around for a couple of clear plastic drink bottles that'll just take the blade. Maybe cut the bottom off one and the top off the other, sleeve them together, couple of clear plastic bags (one in the other), fill with juice and see what happens. Oh and sellotape coz it's always useful.
The handle is on very tight so am not wanting to separate at the moment.

I don't know where you live; but if you have a discount store that sells cheap art glass like our TJ Maxx, or Marshall's you can sometimes find inexpensive glass vases with a deep V shape that can be got cheaply . ;)

There is also PVC pipe with a cap glued on one end . :)

Yeah, that Golden Circle is what I use. For many years it was not possible to buy it without added sugar, and that's what I used for a very long time. Works just as well, but in hot weather the mold forms up on the surface quicker.

If you can find one, a wall paper trough is the best soak utensil I know of.

Rick's suggestion of pvc pipe with caps glued on works well too--- but once you glue the caps on you cut it in half lengthwise.4"X2" square section pipe is the best.

If all else fails all you need do is make a long narrow box out of corrugated cardboard and line it with plactic. That black garden plastic is good, but a couple plastic garbage bags will work OK too.

I am inclined to use a canned M'sian product of pure pineapple juice that is easily found here in S'pore. Cant remember the brand though, failing which theres always freshly squeezed lime juice, that would be good too.

When I am terribly short of time... as is often the case... I have tried using a dishwashing paste that contains lemon or lime extracts... dont know whether you have it where you are... brand name Axion... add in some water to soften the paste up and slather a layer of it on the blade... wait for for a while.. longer for a deeper cleansing action... anything from 1/2 hour to an hour or more... then a good scrub with a toothbrush under running water would clean away grease & much rust. But be aware that it would whiten the blade...

For a cheap container you may wish to consider slitting lengthwise one half of one of those huge coke, pet bottles. Then rest in on something stable..

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll keep an eye out for the items when I'm next at the shops. I have the kit just about ready to start and will take photos to post.
I'll try and make from items readily available around the house.

You cannot properly clean a blade unless you remove the hilt.

That is the first thing you must do.

Its a very easy thing to do, you just heat the sorsoran gently and let the heat build up while you work the hilt backwards and forth to free it. The technique has been mentioned in this Forum a number of times.A candle or small kerosene lamp is probably the best thing to use for this.

It is easy. It is essential.

If you do not want to do this, you had best forget about pineapple juice and soaking. You can do a partial clean by repeatedly brushing with lime juice or lemon juice. It does not do anything like a decent job, but at least it is better that the high probability of damage to hilt or mendak by trying to clean using the soak method, with the hilt attached.

I read in a couple of posts about heating with a blowtorch but I'll give the candle a go. Also spotted a couple of posts dealing with a hilt that had been glued but I hope it won't come to that.

I am planning on the following process:
1. remove hilt
2. degrease
3. soak in juice
then daily (well as close to daily as possible)
4. scrub with toothbrush
5. re-soak
repeat till blade cleaned
6. lime juice and arsenic (optional depending on obtaining arsenic)
7. oil
8. re-hilt

What is a good indicator that a blade has been sufficiently cleaned to treat with lime and arsenic?
How frequently to change out the juice?
Also posts mention keris oil, where can this be sourced? and what is it's closest readily available equivalent?
Many thanks

Light Mineral Oil is what it's called in the US .
Can be scented with a bit cendana (sandlewood) oil .

Pure Sandalwood is nigh impossible to get these days and is very expensive .

Yes, I have mentioned a couple of times that I use a gas torch, but I have never recommended this for use, because if you're new at this game, it is too difficult to control. A candle or a small kero lamp is never ever going to damage the blade through too much heat.Others may also have mentioned a torch, but maybe they have the experience to gauge the correct amount of heat. Its not a good tool for somebody without experience to use.

Apart from the daily scrubbing with a toothbrush you also need to pick any little bits of hard rust off with a sharp metal tool. A saddler's awl is good, so is an old three sided file ground to a point.

Depending on how rusty the blade is you can also scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner during the cleaning period.

When you consider the blade to be clean, you need to scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner to get it white, before you begin to stain it. If you cannot get arsenic, and you're satisfied with the result out of the pineapple juice, then obviously you don't whiten the blade.If you decide to leave the blade as is out of the juice, you need to ensure that you get every last trace of juice off that blade, dry it immediately and then dry with a hair dryer.Spray with WD40 and allow to stand over night.

You'll easily see when its clean, because there will be no rust left on it. None at all.

You don't need to change the juice. In hot weather it will grow a fungus on top, which stinks and is unsightly, but this can just be lifted off and thrown away. In cool weather it will stay clear of fungus.

As Rick has said, sandalwood oil is not easy to get and is expensive. Sandalwood is the smell of the traditional oil. In Jawa this is added to a coconut oil base. In fact, other oils are also used, and the coconut oil used in Jawa is not necessarily ideal as a base. The best protection will be afforded by a good gun oil. Light machine oil is also OK. If you can find an alternate lifestyle shop/ hippy shop or even a health food store, you'll find that they probably sell essential oils. You may find sandalwood there, or some other acceptable oil such as jasmin or rose, you can mix one of these essential oils with medicinal parrafin, and that will give you an acceptable keris oil.Essential oils are used in aroma therapy, and in Australia you can find an acceptable oil almost anywhere, even in small country towns.You don't need much of the essential oil to give the parrafin a decent smell.

I always wrap a freshly cleaned,stained, oiled blade in plastic. This will give protection against deterioration for a very long time.

I used Wahl brand light machine oil. It is odourless and colourless. It is a brand generally associated with hair clippers. To this, I would blend in my own mix of floral scent... i guess this is easier found here in my back of the woods... but essential oils use in aromatherapy.. like Mr Maisey has said, workswell too.

You may consider using a mix of something sweet and floral like jasmine, rose etc and cut it wth a bit of something citrusy.. This is to prevent the overpowering presence of the floral note.

Once you mix these oils they should generally dissolve together... if not just leave it to collect at the base of the container as it will still transmit is fragrance to the rest of the oil. use only the top clear portion when oiling your keris.. hope this wld help...

rgds

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

Playing it safe in the sense that this way the blade meets minimum contact to heat, torch etc.... I know that this way, the hilt could be ruined or damaged, but the main issue is to preserve the keris blade, not the dress....

and in my limited experience, never once I damaged the hilt removed this way..

:eek: Wow...that seems really excessive to me. It is pretty sure to do damage to the finish of the hilt i would think. Sure the blade is the most important element, but i see no reason to endanger a nice hilt in this manner. The heat required to loosen a blade is not nearly as dangerous to the blade.

Gentlemen, Its all a matter of perspective. The method described by Penangsang is pretty much in used in M'sia & S'pore... I cant speak for Indonesia as I am not certain about the practices ther. But the main objective is to save the blade... & especially the peksi.

As I have writtn elsewhere here, the Malay perspective of the value & the strength of the keris resides in the peksi. The peksi & the blade needs to be protected above all else. On top of that, being in Malaysia and S'pore, getting access to excellent qlty hilts, whether newly made or antique is farmore relatively easier.

Thus, a combination of all this factors wld make the method decribed by Penangsang not seen to excessive at all and in fact to be very apt. So its a matter of context.

Another example is the placement of the hilts. When a hilt is not properly oriented when received & when they are unable to be removed by all other methods... I have known many serious collectors to have made the decision to destroy the hilt by hacking it off in order to save the blade, protect the peksi and ensure that the hilt is placed in the correct orientation rather then leaving it be. Again its a mtter of context. Blade & peksi first... hilts... to many collectors here is secondary...

The advice I have already given is based upon this:-

I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris.

Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis.

I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers.

I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years.

The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw.

The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp.

Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin.

Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin.

Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt.

That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water.

If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing.

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice.

Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective.

It is not.

It is a matter of professional standards.

The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris.

The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa.

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.